RateTheRef

Quote from: Arbitre anglais on Fri 28 Jun 2024 17:18

Quote from: ryan80 on Fri 28 Jun 2024 16:31

Apparently, Danny Makkelie, Jesus Gil Manzano, Sandro Schärer, Marco Guida and Istvan Kovacs have all gone home

If true about Makkelie, it’s pretty outrageous. I’d go as far as to say it’d make me thing about stepping back off the international list asUefa would be taking the *** He continuously gets given big, tough games that need a strong ref (including semis) and then gets overlooked for finals - often given to others who have had their smooth path orchestrated. He should’ve well had one of the Uefa finals by now.

Can only be politics which are always a massive factor at home and abroad. Kuipers now on committee - does that help/hinder?

Let’s hope it’s not true!

He got a KMD wrong in his last game.  If they are doing appointments purely on performances, which they should be, it might be that the low mark from that game but him in the bottom x% and therefore meant he wasn't retained.

I agree it should be performance based although it still seems a bit surprising as quite a few officials have needed VAR input and as you mentioned Turpin and team needed it multiple times in the opening match.

The BBC coverage seemed to place a lack of emphasis on the initial on-field decision being offside.

For what it's worth Dale Johnson agrees with decision and says most controversial part was why it took Attwell and co so long to complete VAR check - https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/40403064/var-review-why-simons-goal-netherlands-was-ruled-offside

Good appointment for Oliver. Turpin seems a sensible choice to start things off.

Only UEFA could have game 7 kicking off before game 5!

The article needs to be seen as a pure PR piece, because that's what it is.

For the most recent decision in my mind, there is absolutely no mention of the Semenyo foul on Sterling being an error. And any piece that doesn't conclude that as an error is clearly pointless.

The article is quite clear on the data it is presenting and is very thorough in laying it out.

Of course you can disagree with some of the panel's judgements if you wish but knowing exactly which errors have been recorded as VAR mistakes helps us to do that in a way we couldn't otherwise.

I don't think the article would work if it also started saying 'I thought the Chelsea V Bournemouth game also featured an error so I'm going to put that into the list too' as you'd just end up with blurred lines between the two. 

This article from Dale Johnson is the most comprehensive data review I've ever come across at the end of a Premier League season - https://www.espn.com/soccer/insider/story/_/id/40150227/every-premier-league-var-error-ranking-winners-losers-referee-stats-2023-24?_nocache

It lists all the 31 VAR errors recorded by the Premier League's KMI panel across the season.

It also makes reference to other errors recorded against each referee which weren't deemed relevant for VAR intervention - e.g. not clear and obvious or a 2nd yellow card.

It also breaks down errors made by each VAR.

Simon Hooper, John Brooks and impressively Sam Barrott seem to come out especially well as on-field referees. Anthony Taylor and Michael Oliver probably a bit under par. Craig Pawson and Stuart Attwell disappointing for their experience (you can see from this why Attwell didn't get Cup final! - doesn't seem his best season on-field or as VAR.) and bad figures for Michael Salsbury and Tony Harrington as referees. The likes of David Coote and Paul Tierney maybe do better on the pitch than some would expect according to these figures.

In contrast, Salsbury seems to do very well as VAR (apart from on opening weekend of season!) Credit to him for that. Brooks also performs well as VAR. But Tierney and Attwell seemingly not so good.

It might take you a while to go through it but I think it's definitely an article worth exploring and lots to discuss! 

Quote from: Joecphillips on Fri 17 May 2024 07:45

Quote from: Readingfan on Thu 16 May 2024 11:52

Here's some changes I'd like to see/consider:

1. Introduce semi-automated offside as soon as possible as I think that would really make offside process more efficient. Ideally they would find a way to quickly communicate the likely decision so everyone knows pretty much straight away.

2. Improve communication/transparency further - I think going down route of in-stadium announcements would be a good step and they should release more post-match audio. I'd ideally like to see them go down a system similar to rugby where everything is shown on big screen and audio is played out live but I believe both of those would need IFAB approval (and I think IFAB deserve a lot of blame for VAR problems.)

3. I think bar for VAR intervention is too high in PL and they need to drop clear and obvious a bit. If you look at judgements of Premier League panel it seems there are much more missed VAR interventions as opposed to incorrect ones. (Ideally I'd go more down a system of rugby where the referee has much more scope to look at major incidents but there's no pressure to change their decision and they can just say they are happy with their decision but obviously that would require a complete change of VAR approach.)

4. Would it be beneficial to have a dedicated panel of VARs and would this be practical to implement? Would it be useful to widen FA Cup approach of having an extra VAR referee in room?

I don't really support the idea of a challenge system as I think teams would just use up challenges because they were there and you'd end up with missed incidents because a team didn't appeal or didn't have  a challenge left - there'd also be increased implications of VAR mistakes as it would result in lost challenges.

I’d say these are all worthwhile changes to try:
1. Would deal with one of the most common issues

2. I’ve wanted more openness of what goes on in decision making processes, it helps humanise people and would likely help reduce the discussion around referees being corrupt/hate my team etc, I do think it may amplify a small minority what algorithms would push their negative/hateful comments further the only issue

3. Agree again an error is an error and needs fixing we shouldn’t be saying it’s wrong but is it wrong enough.

4. I do think this would help they are very different roles and although there are a lot of similarities require different skills, there are a lot of discussions here about how referees have interacted with players big for on the field but not key for var roles that are more processing information efficiently.

The problem with point 3 is fundamentally you are then forcing yourself to re-referee the entire game. No decision is out of bounds. If an incorrectly awarded throw in leads to a goal, this should surely be overturned? I just think you're then looking at a scenario where it creeps ever further and further...

The only solution for me is to get rid of it for all subjective decisions, and leave it solely for matters of fact. Technology tells us if a ball was over the line or not, or if a player is in an offside position or not. It cannot - and never will be able to - tell us if something is a foul because that always relies on human subjectivity.

I think you would still keep the limit on areas that can be currently reviewed, as I think they have in other sports.

I think the last numbers I heard from judgement of PL panel was there had been 29 VAR errors this season - 24 of which had been missed interventions and 5 of which had been incorrect VAR interventions so that suggests to me referees need to be looking at screen more, even if they don't always change mind. It doesn't really make sense to me to introduce video replays but be so limiting on when video replays are shown to referee.

I don't agree it's necessary to get rid of subjective decisions from VAR. My overriding perspective is referees are trained and employed to make decisions so I'm generally happy to rely on their judgement but I think they should be in a better position to make it in many situations with access to video replays but they should be the ones to lead it rather than someone else trying to second guess them.

Would Thierry Henry handball count as subjective? The Zidane headbutt in the World Cup final? I don't think it would improve things.

Quote from: Readingfan on Fri 17 May 2024 07:10

Was he maybe a bit unlucky not to get the play-off final? Who do we think might get it?

Rob Jones or Simon Hooper imo

Is Hooper FO for FA Cup final day before? I think that would rule him out.

Jones seems a decent shout or maybe Brooks.

Here's some changes I'd like to see/consider:

1. Introduce semi-automated offside as soon as possible as I think that would really make offside process more efficient. Ideally they would find a way to quickly communicate the likely decision so everyone knows pretty much straight away.

2. Improve communication/transparency further - I think going down route of in-stadium announcements would be a good step and they should release more post-match audio. I'd ideally like to see them go down a system similar to rugby where everything is shown on big screen and audio is played out live but I believe both of those would need IFAB approval (and I think IFAB deserve a lot of blame for VAR problems.)

3. I think bar for VAR intervention is too high in PL and they need to drop clear and obvious a bit. If you look at judgements of Premier League panel it seems there are much more missed VAR interventions as opposed to incorrect ones. (Ideally I'd go more down a system of rugby where the referee has much more scope to look at major incidents but there's no pressure to change their decision and they can just say they are happy with their decision but obviously that would require a complete change of VAR approach.)

4. Would it be beneficial to have a dedicated panel of VARs and would this be practical to implement? Would it be useful to widen FA Cup approach of having an extra VAR referee in room?

I don't really support the idea of a challenge system as I think teams would just use up challenges because they were there and you'd end up with missed incidents because a team didn't appeal or didn't have  a challenge left - there'd also be increased implications of VAR mistakes as it would result in lost challenges.