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Author Topic: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League  (Read 24340 times)

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bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #270 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 16:05 »

I can't say I've really noticed any great dislike of Pawson. I remember him being very popular when he first started on PL, before his perceived stagnation as mentioned. I've seen many positive comments about him since the restart and I think most would probably put him in the generally good/dependable group of officials who still has the potential to go a bit further.

As for Mike Dean, I think it's clear there's a few people who have a bias against him because of his demeanour and refereeing style. It's true there are many posters who praise him but then is that bias or just an accurate reflection of affairs? Personally I think he's been the best English referee in terms of consistency over the last 10-15 years. Obviously others are free to disagree.

Of course it's true that it is human nature to have preconceptions and influences on our opinions, and many people will be more forgiving of an error by someone we generally regard in a positive light compared to someone we rate less. We should do our best to be as open-minded as possible but I'm sure pretty much all of us have certain biases, however sub-conscious - even you!


I do indeed - Mr Solymosi has never made a single error.

Everyone else though gets judged on their performance on the day not whether I like them or not even Karakó & Vad, my 2 most disliked referees at domestic level. Danny McDermid taught me that lesson many years ago now. I tend not to watch any games involving Karasev or Hategan and even if I do I am unlikely to comment on them because I know I will be biased against them.

Personally I think Mike Dean is a great referee and has been consistently excellent for many years but he is as fallible to having a bad game as any of our other referees, he does make mistakes, just like everyone else and those games always come with an excuse on here or get glossed over or just ignored with comments as he's been our best for years now, it's rarely if ever accepted that he too can have a poor day at the office. That annoys me - it's ok to accept that he is actually a mere human and can call decisions wrong, too many won't though. Craig however is one that when you read the write ups on here, very rarely gets a lot of praise even when deserved and it often comes with a but... That also annoys me!  Judge on the performance and not the name of the referee.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #271 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 16:06 »
Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA? 

Craig & Paul are too old for elite now - UEFA don't tend to promote to elite after around age 40 so as to give the referees time to gain experience at elite level ahead of major tournaments.


The only time that UEFA promoted someone over 40 to the Elite was at Dec. 2018. The promotion of Del Cerro Grande at age 42.

Hoping they will do so for Bognár this Jan. If not it's going to be 5-7 years before Hungary gets another elite referee.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

Readingfan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #272 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 17:58 »

I can't say I've really noticed any great dislike of Pawson. I remember him being very popular when he first started on PL, before his perceived stagnation as mentioned. I've seen many positive comments about him since the restart and I think most would probably put him in the generally good/dependable group of officials who still has the potential to go a bit further.

As for Mike Dean, I think it's clear there's a few people who have a bias against him because of his demeanour and refereeing style. It's true there are many posters who praise him but then is that bias or just an accurate reflection of affairs? Personally I think he's been the best English referee in terms of consistency over the last 10-15 years. Obviously others are free to disagree.

Of course it's true that it is human nature to have preconceptions and influences on our opinions, and many people will be more forgiving of an error by someone we generally regard in a positive light compared to someone we rate less. We should do our best to be as open-minded as possible but I'm sure pretty much all of us have certain biases, however sub-conscious - even you!


I do indeed - Mr Solymosi has never made a single error.

Everyone else though gets judged on their performance on the day not whether I like them or not even Karakó & Vad, my 2 most disliked referees at domestic level. Danny McDermid taught me that lesson many years ago now. I tend not to watch any games involving Karasev or Hategan and even if I do I am unlikely to comment on them because I know I will be biased against them.

Personally I think Mike Dean is a great referee and has been consistently excellent for many years but he is as fallible to having a bad game as any of our other referees, he does make mistakes, just like everyone else and those games always come with an excuse on here or get glossed over or just ignored with comments as he's been our best for years now, it's rarely if ever accepted that he too can have a poor day at the office. That annoys me - it's ok to accept that he is actually a mere human and can call decisions wrong, too many won't though. Craig however is one that when you read the write ups on here, very rarely gets a lot of praise even when deserved and it often comes with a but... That also annoys me!  Judge on the performance and not the name of the referee.

I'd say that choosing not to comment on certain referees because you know you will be biased against them is a manifestation of what you say about performances that go against our expectations/preconceptions being ignored.

I agree that we should try and judge on an individual performance as much as possible but I think it's understandable - and in some cases fine - to incorporate that into a broader discussion about that particular referee. I think noting that X has had a good game but needs to do it more consistently is a reasonable observation as it acknowledges the wider picture.

Of course suggesting a referee's decision is correct/incorrect when the evidence suggests the opposite should be challenged, and perhaps posters need to be encouraged to continue doing that when they have a view different to the consensus. I can understand though why human nature dictates we have more patience/sympathy with someone when we judge mistakes/bad performances to be rare rather than common.

 

bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #273 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 18:10 »

I'd say that choosing not to comment on certain referees because you know you will be biased against them is a manifestation of what you say about performances that go against our expectations/preconceptions being ignored.


I choose not to comment on them because I am aware of my bias and I don't think it is fair on them for me to comment knowing I could take any small error and blow it out of proportion simply due to my intense dislike of them.  That's not to say that I would not say they have had a great game if that was the case - I would rather see both of them go out & put in an outstanding performance. I want that from every referee. I have actually commented on Hategan 2/3 times since the NI debacle and even praised some of his decision making because it deserved the praise. I've avoided watching Karasev since the Hungary debacle.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

Readingfan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #274 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 18:15 »

I'd say that choosing not to comment on certain referees because you know you will be biased against them is a manifestation of what you say about performances that go against our expectations/preconceptions being ignored.


I choose not to comment on them because I am aware of my bias and I don't think it is fair on them for me to comment knowing I could take any small error and blow it out of proportion simply due to my intense dislike of them.  That's not to say that I would not say they have had a great game if that was the case - I would rather see both of them go out & put in an outstanding performance. I want that from every referee. I have actually commented on Hategan 2/3 times since the NI debacle and even praised some of his decision making because it deserved the praise. I've avoided watching Karasev since the Hungary debacle.

That's fair enough and good that you are aware of that potential bias.

But then you also say someone like Criag Pawson doesn't get praised when deserved - what if there are posters who feel similarly about him as you do Hategan for instance?

The other thing of course is that not every match has a thread started, so I guess there is naturally a selective process in terms of what gets discussed in the first place.


bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #275 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 20:14 »

The other thing of course is that not every match has a thread started, so I guess there is naturally a selective process in terms of what gets discussed in the first place.



All posters can start a thread. There is a very noticeable bias for who people rush to praise and for those they only mention if an error or perceived error is involved regardless of the teams involved so it's not linked to perhaps not getting the bigger games every week. The pattern has been the same for years, I'm not the only one who has commented on it & you can go back across the last 4-5 years and you'll see similar comments from me & others.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #276 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 20:28 »
I think Mr Dean has been our best referee for some considerable time....Yes, better than Anthony🤪🤪
I also believe that with a bit of luck and a following wind Rob Jones will make it to the very top, leaving  other English Referees behind
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edy

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #277 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 20:37 »
Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA? 

Craig & Paul are too old for elite now - UEFA don't tend to promote to elite after around age 40 so as to give the referees time to gain experience at elite level ahead of major tournaments.


The only time that UEFA promoted someone over 40 to the Elite was at Dec. 2018. The promotion of Del Cerro Grande at age 42.

Hoping they will do so for Bognár this Jan. If not it's going to be 5-7 years before Hungary gets another elite referee.

I would like to see Bognar promoted but IMO that's very difficult. He is appointed only in EL and not CL. So I believe that UEFA sees him as a solid 1st group referee.
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bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #278 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 21:04 »
Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA? 

Craig & Paul are too old for elite now - UEFA don't tend to promote to elite after around age 40 so as to give the referees time to gain experience at elite level ahead of major tournaments.


The only time that UEFA promoted someone over 40 to the Elite was at Dec. 2018. The promotion of Del Cerro Grande at age 42.

Hoping they will do so for Bognár this Jan. If not it's going to be 5-7 years before Hungary gets another elite referee.

I would like to see Bognar promoted but IMO that's very difficult. He is appointed only in EL and not CL. So I believe that UEFA sees him as a solid 1st group referee.

Have to agree Edy. Sadly! It is however our only hope of having an elite referee any time soon! He & Vad are both 41, Vad is always injured and not elite material anyway, he's too inconsistent. Farkas our only group 2 ref is 38.  Karako is 37, Berke 36 & still in Group 3. Berke is probably the only one who can make it to elite currently and only if he gets promoted to group 2 in Jan. Future looking very bleak in refereeing terms here.

Bogár gets his badge in Jan, he turns 29 next week. Our Federation have to be radical this year, remove Vad & Karako & replace them with Pillók (29) & Csonka (28). If we're going to be without an elite referee anyway we may as well get the 3 youngsters all onto the list now and gaining experience.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #279 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 22:37 »

The other thing of course is that not every match has a thread started, so I guess there is naturally a selective process in terms of what gets discussed in the first place.



All posters can start a thread. There is a very noticeable bias for who people rush to praise and for those they only mention if an error or perceived error is involved regardless of the teams involved so it's not linked to perhaps not getting the bigger games every week. The pattern has been the same for years, I'm not the only one who has commented on it & you can go back across the last 4-5 years and you'll see similar comments from me & others.

Of course - but you've said yourself you are influenced in who you comment on, so there's always going to be a selective process and I guess  generally opinions don't fluctuate too much once set. That's just human nature.

Ultimately if a poster feels a particular referee should get more praise/criticism then they should start threads or post such comments on threads.

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #280 on: Tue 18 Aug 2020 09:08 »
Daniele Orsato (ITA), Danny Makkelie (NED), Szymon Marciniak (POL), Anthony Taylor (ENG), Clément Turpin (FRA).

One of these for the final?

I would rule out Marcinak.

Does the fact that working with VAR week in, week out rule out Hategan?


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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #281 on: Tue 18 Aug 2020 09:40 »
If one of the French teams get through, it would rule out Turpin and there is still the possibility of the Final being awarded to someone who's already had it.
Could Lahoz still be in with a shout despite having a SF?

I'll leave edy and others to advise on who might be regarded as 'senior' and in form of Orsato, Makkelie, Taylor and Hategan.

ajb95

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #282 on: Tue 18 Aug 2020 10:12 »
If one of the French teams get through, it would rule out Turpin and there is still the possibility of the Final being awarded to someone who's already had it.
Could Lahoz still be in with a shout despite having a SF?

I'll leave edy and others to advise on who might be regarded as 'senior' and in form of Orsato, Makkelie, Taylor and Hategan.

I would say Makkelie is the best out of those

Readingfan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #283 on: Tue 18 Aug 2020 10:22 »
If one of the French teams get through, it would rule out Turpin and there is still the possibility of the Final being awarded to someone who's already had it.
Could Lahoz still be in with a shout despite having a SF?

I'll leave edy and others to advise on who might be regarded as 'senior' and in form of Orsato, Makkelie, Taylor and Hategan.

I would say Makkelie is the best out of those

I'd probably agree - but I'd be surprised if he got it over Lahoz. He's only 37 I think and still seems relatively new to elite level refereeing (certainly for the top games), whereas Lahoz is 33 and there could easily be Spanish teams the next few years.

I think having a referee appointed a second time like Skomina or Cakir is quite possible. I'm not fully convinced by Orsato but he's 45 at the end of this year so if he's going to do it now is the time.




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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #284 on: Tue 18 Aug 2020 15:56 »
Danny Makkelie has the Europa League final, so we can rule him out.