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Author Topic: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League  (Read 24384 times)

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DBLTFC

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #255 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 07:47 »
Apologies for being a bit slow on this, but why is Taylor being preferred ahead of Oliver? Clearly (in my opinion anyway), Michael is the better referee.

Best referee for the best games...?
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greeny

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #256 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 08:28 »
Hard to say without speaking to someone at UEFA!  Maybe Anthony's more outgoing and confident style suits what UEFA are looking for better, or maybe Anthony has just performed better in European games than Michael.  If you look at the calibre of games Anthony has had in Europe this season, there is no doubt that he is rated very highly by UEFA, so he must be doing something right.


tomp

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #257 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 09:22 »
Semi Final: Estádio José Alvalade - Lisbon Wednesday 19th August 20:00

Lyon V Bayern Munich
Referee: Antonio Mateu Lahoz (ESP)
Assistant Referee: Pau Cebrián Devís (ESP)
Assistant Referee: Roberto del Palomar (ESP)
Video Assistant Referee: Alejandro Hernández Hernández (ESP)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: José María Sánchez (ESP)
Fourth Official: Carlos del Cerro Grande (ESP)
« Last Edit: Mon 17 Aug 2020 09:24 by tomp »

Ref Fan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #258 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 09:25 »
Hendo

That's embarrassing and hugely disrespectful toward a colleague

It was probably a little harsh - Taylor undoubtedly has his qualities and I'm sure wasn't striving to perform poorly in the FA Cup final - but 'colleague' would require Hendo to also be a referee (perhaps he is?) and I think it's fair to say Taylor's not ready yet for a CL final and I don't think has performed to such a high level in Europe this season to justify such an honour.

I think Readingfan puts it very fairly.  If there's 1 aspect for both Taylor and Oliver that slightly disappoints me, it's that my impression is neither has yet developed quite as much as hoped, although I appreciate they are still relatively new in the elite category.  They don't yet have the stature or presence of a Brych, Cakir, Skomina or Kuipers for example who I recognise are vastly more experienced and older.  Maybe it will still come, especially as Oliver is only 35, and I've not read any reports to suggest either has performed badly in Europe this season.   

Perhaps I'm being unfair (as a non-referee) but I have the same sense of some of our other SG1 referees.  Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA?  They, as well as Taylor and Oliver, are all good referees of course.  But can they reach that very top drawer of excellence? 
 


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Mackem ref

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #259 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 09:41 »
I agree with what you mention ref fan. One factor for me is expectation. Our referees are expected to have a totally different style domestically compared to in Europe. Premier League is all about managing games, reducing the number of cards and doing everything you possible can to keep 22 players on the field! Whereas European matches is all about applying the law strictly - a yellow is a yellow, no negotiation. It would help our refs greatly IMO if PL adopted the European way - they would find refereeing in Europe easier and there would be more consistency within and between games domestically!

Readingfan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #260 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 10:36 »
I agree with what you mention ref fan. One factor for me is expectation. Our referees are expected to have a totally different style domestically compared to in Europe. Premier League is all about managing games, reducing the number of cards and doing everything you possible can to keep 22 players on the field! Whereas European matches is all about applying the law strictly - a yellow is a yellow, no negotiation. It would help our refs greatly IMO if PL adopted the European way - they would find refereeing in Europe easier and there would be more consistency within and between games domestically!

I'm not sure I really agree with that. Nowadays I think managing the game at international level is seen as just as important a skill (perhaps even more important, if you think back to the last two World Cups in particular which had very lenient refereeing).

I'd argue that Taylor has probably done better than many expected - I think it took him a while to settle when promoted to Premier League and I certainly wasn't expecting him to do PSG V Real Madrid in the Champions League and so on. I think he's done fine.

At 35, I'd say Oliver is also in a very good place. He's not reached the very top yet internationally but then Webb/Clattenburg/Atkinson have all been around for much of his time until the last few years. I'm sure he's done major finals/semi-finals at FIFA tournaments and is consistently one of the top performers in the PL. I'd agree that hasn't fully translated into CL appointments yet but I'd say that's as much to do with UEFA as Oliver, and I'm sure his chance will come. His development could certainly have easily been much worse than it has been!

I think Tierney has at least met expectations, perhaps surpassed them. He's only been in the PL four seasons but has done the likes of Arsenal V Liverpool, Man Utd V Spurs and Arsenal V Man City last season. It took Andre Marriner longer to reach that sort of level of game.

Craig Pawson's the one that I might agree with - I don't think he's done poorly or anything like that but he really made an impression in his first year or two on the PL and I'm not sure he's quite kicked on from there as much as he maybe could have. He's 41 I believe now, so not sure how much further he'll go in Europe.


greeny

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #261 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 10:43 »
Hendo

That's embarrassing and hugely disrespectful toward a colleague

It was probably a little harsh - Taylor undoubtedly has his qualities and I'm sure wasn't striving to perform poorly in the FA Cup final - but 'colleague' would require Hendo to also be a referee (perhaps he is?) and I think it's fair to say Taylor's not ready yet for a CL final and I don't think has performed to such a high level in Europe this season to justify such an honour.

I think Readingfan puts it very fairly.  If there's 1 aspect for both Taylor and Oliver that slightly disappoints me, it's that my impression is neither has yet developed quite as much as hoped, although I appreciate they are still relatively new in the elite category.  They don't yet have the stature or presence of a Brych, Cakir, Skomina or Kuipers for example who I recognise are vastly more experienced and older.  Maybe it will still come, especially as Oliver is only 35, and I've not read any reports to suggest either has performed badly in Europe this season.   

Perhaps I'm being unfair (as a non-referee) but I have the same sense of some of our other SG1 referees.  Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA?  They, as well as Taylor and Oliver, are all good referees of course.  But can they reach that very top drawer of excellence?

Craig and Paul are probably too old to make it to Elite, certainly Tierney who seems to be directed down the VAR route.  I would say Tierney has done well, but Craig has stagnated.  Kavanagh seems to have become a bit stagnant too, but his recent promotion to group 1, with time on his side, and with a bit of a push - I think he will be our next Elite referee.

I think this season was not the best season for Taylor or Oliver, Taylor was very good in the first half of the season but very mixed in the second half.  Oliver impressed me less than he did others - there were a few high profile matches where I felt he was not that great.  Both will need to be more consistent to make it to the top. 

The reason I think Taylor seems to be doing better than Oliver in Europe is down to their styles of refereeing.  Taylor tends to use cards more, and is more demonstrative in his approach, which suits the European style of football.  Oliver is more reserved and man manages more, which works better in England.
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Readingfan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #262 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 12:22 »
I'm a bit surprised by Lahoz' appointment as I thought he was most likely for the final with no Spanish teams involved.

I wonder if someone will get it for a second time - Cakir perhaps?

I wouldn't be surprised if Hategan gets the CL final.


bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #263 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 13:27 »
Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA? 

Craig & Paul are too old for elite now - UEFA don't tend to promote to elite after around age 40 so as to give the referees time to gain experience at elite level ahead of major tournaments.

Thereagin it appears on this forum that Craig can do no right. He's not one of the popular crowd and reason will always been found for something he's not done right - his socks weren't level, one shoe lace was longer than the other or some such guff. He's a decent young ref and has increased in all aspects this season, especially since the return from the covid break but he could deliver a masterclass every single game & some on here would still find something wrong - the contrast of Mike Dean who apparently is always perfect even when he's not... The bias is very noticable!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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JCFC

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #264 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 13:52 »
Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA? 

Craig & Paul are too old for elite now - UEFA don't tend to promote to elite after around age 40 ...

... which is roughly when the authorities here seem to start promoting them! With luck Rob Jones will not be held back too long and may still have a chance to move upwards. Sadly, it would seem to be too late already for Darren England, who is now in his mid thirties. As predicted, the introduction of SG2 has proved a further obstacle. Fortunately, there are signs that some younger officials are being fast-tracked - and not a moment too soon.
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MJW89

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #265 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 13:57 »
Am I right in thinking that we have 2 spaces left to nominate referees for FIFA - currently have 8 listed? It will be interesting to see if either England or Jones are nominated in their first year as Coote and Madley were. I believe they are both in their early 30s? So plenty of time to progress on the international stage. I think Rob Jones is an exceptional referee and can see him becoming part of the elite group in time but agree that Kavanagh is in pole position to take over from Taylor in that sense.
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JCFC

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #266 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 14:05 »
Welcome MJW89, and as you will see, I agree with your comments. I wonder whether Mr England's time as a FIFA assistant will count in his favour.
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Readingfan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #267 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 15:05 »
Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA? 

Craig & Paul are too old for elite now - UEFA don't tend to promote to elite after around age 40 so as to give the referees time to gain experience at elite level ahead of major tournaments.

Thereagin it appears on this forum that Craig can do no right. He's not one of the popular crowd and reason will always been found for something he's not done right - his socks weren't level, one shoe lace was longer than the other or some such guff. He's a decent young ref and has increased in all aspects this season, especially since the return from the covid break but he could deliver a masterclass every single game & some on here would still find something wrong - the contrast of Mike Dean who apparently is always perfect even when he's not... The bias is very noticable!

I can't say I've really noticed any great dislike of Pawson. I remember him being very popular when he first started on PL, before his perceived stagnation as mentioned. I've seen many positive comments about him since the restart and I think most would probably put him in the generally good/dependable group of officials who still has the potential to go a bit further.

As for Mike Dean, I think it's clear there's a few people who have a bias against him because of his demeanour and refereeing style. It's true there are many posters who praise him but then is that bias or just an accurate reflection of affairs? Personally I think he's been the best English referee in terms of consistency over the last 10-15 years. Obviously others are free to disagree.

Of course it's true that it is human nature to have preconceptions and influences on our opinions, and many people will be more forgiving of an error by someone we generally regard in a positive light compared to someone we rate less. We should do our best to be as open-minded as possible but I'm sure pretty much all of us have certain biases, however sub-conscious - even you!



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edy

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #268 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 15:47 »
Have Pawson and Tierney to name two really come on as much as one would expect in the PL?  Could either make elite category with FIFA? 

Craig & Paul are too old for elite now - UEFA don't tend to promote to elite after around age 40 so as to give the referees time to gain experience at elite level ahead of major tournaments.


The only time that UEFA promoted someone over 40 to the Elite was at Dec. 2018. The promotion of Del Cerro Grande at age 42.
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edy

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #269 on: Mon 17 Aug 2020 15:51 »
Apologies for being a bit slow on this, but why is Taylor being preferred ahead of Oliver? Clearly (in my opinion anyway), Michael is the better referee.

Best referee for the best games...?

Both referees were promoted to the Elite by PLC. PLC clearly favors Oliver. It was evident from the RM-JUV appointment.

When Rosetti took over, he seemed to focus more on Taylor. Probably he feels that his style suits better the requirements of International matches. Plus Rosetti values decision-making accuracy. Oliver had a few problems on his past with penalty area incidents and I believe that this also played a part.
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