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Author Topic: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League  (Read 24339 times)

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PhiltheRef

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #225 on: Wed 12 Aug 2020 22:01 »
Hardly a card fest really!
Have you an argument with any of the cards?

Ref Fan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #226 on: Wed 12 Aug 2020 22:24 »
Atalanta 6: PSG 3 on that score.  And Atalanta conceded 29 fouls according to BT Sport

Was slightly surprised at a couple of the YCs early in the second half but there were one or two challenges later when I was expecting a YC that wasn't forthcoming.

My impression was AT decided cards were the appropriate game plan rather than trying to man manage players.  Whether other senior Elite referees would have chosen the same approach I'm not sure.  I should add I didn't see the first half so maybe there were incidents then that led to his actions thereafter.

ryan80

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #227 on: Thu 13 Aug 2020 09:54 »
Manchester City v Lyon (Lisbon)

Referee: Danny Makkelie (NED)
Assistant referees: Mario Diks (NED) and Hessel Steegstra (NED)
Video Assistant Referee: Jochem Kamphuis (NED)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Kevin Blom (NED)
Fourth official: Tasos Sidiropoulos (GRE)

I thought someone else from Holland would do this match!

bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #228 on: Thu 13 Aug 2020 13:00 »
Manchester City v Lyon (Lisbon)

Referee: Danny Makkelie (NED)
Assistant referees: Mario Diks (NED) and Hessel Steegstra (NED)
Video Assistant Referee: Jochem Kamphuis (NED)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Kevin Blom (NED)
Fourth official: Tasos Sidiropoulos (GRE)

I thought someone else from Holland would do this match!

The other one has unwittingly managed to get himself involved in a scandal in Russia! Think he might be laying low for a while...
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

dave26

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #229 on: Thu 13 Aug 2020 17:25 »
Bmb what did mean by he managed to get himself involved in a scandal in Russia ? I presume your referring to Bjorn Kuipers - what has he done ?

bmb

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #230 on: Thu 13 Aug 2020 20:49 »
Bmb what did mean by he managed to get himself involved in a scandal in Russia ? I presume your referring to Bjorn Kuipers - what has he done ?

Long story short - lots of allegations of corruption in Russia, refs having to take lie detector tests - not a nice environment. After a controversial decision a few days ago (the ref passed the lie detector test for that one) he replied to a text he thought was from a Russian ref saying along the lines of, yeah it was a pen for him, but it was actually the manager of the team denied the pen who had same 1st name as the ref Kuipers thought he was chatting in confidence to. Within mins it was headline news, Kuipers agreeing it was wrong while Kassai was blindly sticking by his refs & didn't know the LOTG etc. Kuipers then finds out he wasn't talking to who he thought he was & is horrified, has come out & said he'd never have discussed it with a manager, he backs the ref, backs Kassai etc. Bit messy to say the least.  He was duped by a manager. Announced today the ref involved had passed a 6 hour long lie detector test taken on Tuesday showing he was not corrupt! Although that lie detector test may have been a different incident there were 2 1 day apart but Kuipers being duped was very genuine & very embarrassing for him. Caused an absolute s***storm there.


It is all out there in the Russian press if anyone wants links.

Will add his full quote was along the lines of he would have given a pen but the VAR could not intervene as it was not a clear and obvious error - the manager didn't repeat that part. Today's top story is that Kassai deliberately writes nonsensical protocol to protect the corrupt refs! Wonder if anyone has told IFAB/FIFA that yet as it is their protocol being referred to! Waiting to find out what the independent lawyers who do the lie detector tests excuse is for them to be able to pass them!!
« Last Edit: Thu 13 Aug 2020 21:07 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

Ashington46

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #231 on: Thu 13 Aug 2020 22:17 »
bmb --many thanks for giving that background to events in Russia relating to football!
I really do not know where the game is going with referees being subjected to lie detector tests.
Yes, sadly, there has always been corruption within the game and, because of the large sums of money floating around, I am sad to say that there always will be. However, subjecting officials to lie detector tests is really pushing things and then managers doing as this guy has done just make me think that the game has gone.

Having said that, I have just watched Leipzig v Atletico Madrid and seen free kicks given for minimal contact, cautions issued for players for very minor offences, players and management waving imaginary cards at the officials, players falling over and having a sly glance at the officials ---is this really the game as it is meant to be played? It would appear so because the modern fan is happy with it.
Referee's decision used to be final!
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dave26

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #232 on: Fri 14 Aug 2020 03:31 »
Bmb what did mean by he managed to get himself involved in a scandal in Russia ? I presume your referring to Bjorn Kuipers - what has he done ?

Long story short - lots of allegations of corruption in Russia, refs having to take lie detector tests - not a nice environment. After a controversial decision a few days ago (the ref passed the lie detector test for that one) he replied to a text he thought was from a Russian ref saying along the lines of, yeah it was a pen for him, but it was actually the manager of the team denied the pen who had same 1st name as the ref Kuipers thought he was chatting in confidence to. Within mins it was headline news, Kuipers agreeing it was wrong while Kassai was blindly sticking by his refs & didn't know the LOTG etc. Kuipers then finds out he wasn't talking to who he thought he was & is horrified, has come out & said he'd never have discussed it with a manager, he backs the ref, backs Kassai etc. Bit messy to say the least.  He was duped by a manager. Announced today the ref involved had passed a 6 hour long lie detector test taken on Tuesday showing he was not corrupt! Although that lie detector test may have been a different incident there were 2 1 day apart but Kuipers being duped was very genuine & very embarrassing for him. Caused an absolute s***storm there.


It is all out there in the Russian press if anyone wants links.

Will add his full quote was along the lines of he would have given a pen but the VAR could not intervene as it was not a clear and obvious error - the manager didn't repeat that part. Today's top story is that Kassai deliberately writes nonsensical protocol to protect the corrupt refs! Wonder if anyone has told IFAB/FIFA that yet as it is their protocol being referred to! Waiting to find out what the independent lawyers who do the lie detector tests excuse is for them to be able to pass them!!

Many thanks for that I didn’t know anything at all about it still very risky doing what Kuipers did although he was deceived a referee whom I really watching hope this doesn’t end his career

ryan80

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #233 on: Fri 14 Aug 2020 09:03 »
Bmb what did mean by he managed to get himself involved in a scandal in Russia ? I presume your referring to Bjorn Kuipers - what has he done ?

Long story short - lots of allegations of corruption in Russia, refs having to take lie detector tests - not a nice environment. After a controversial decision a few days ago (the ref passed the lie detector test for that one) he replied to a text he thought was from a Russian ref saying along the lines of, yeah it was a pen for him, but it was actually the manager of the team denied the pen who had same 1st name as the ref Kuipers thought he was chatting in confidence to. Within mins it was headline news, Kuipers agreeing it was wrong while Kassai was blindly sticking by his refs & didn't know the LOTG etc. Kuipers then finds out he wasn't talking to who he thought he was & is horrified, has come out & said he'd never have discussed it with a manager, he backs the ref, backs Kassai etc. Bit messy to say the least.  He was duped by a manager. Announced today the ref involved had passed a 6 hour long lie detector test taken on Tuesday showing he was not corrupt! Although that lie detector test may have been a different incident there were 2 1 day apart but Kuipers being duped was very genuine & very embarrassing for him. Caused an absolute s***storm there.


It is all out there in the Russian press if anyone wants links.

Will add his full quote was along the lines of he would have given a pen but the VAR could not intervene as it was not a clear and obvious error - the manager didn't repeat that part. Today's top story is that Kassai deliberately writes nonsensical protocol to protect the corrupt refs! Wonder if anyone has told IFAB/FIFA that yet as it is their protocol being referred to! Waiting to find out what the independent lawyers who do the lie detector tests excuse is for them to be able to pass them!!

Many thanks for that I didn’t know anything at all about it still very risky doing what Kuipers did although he was deceived a referee whom I really watching hope this doesn’t end his career

Lyon are apparently not happy about any Dutch referee being appointed to this game.  If Man City win, Ajax will qualify automatically for next season’s Champions League group stage. If Lyon come out on top, however, Ajax will have to through a qualifying play-off, which could put them at risk of losing a huge sum of money if they then fail to qualify.

I am not sure that this will in any way affect the referee but it is not helpful in preparations for such a big game.
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RCG

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #234 on: Sat 15 Aug 2020 10:54 »
I despair at the number of straws football clubs will clutch to try and get some sway or influence over a referee or the appointments process.
I just cannot imagine that an Elite referee, who wants to progress, with his boss nearby, global coverage of every decision and VAR, thinks "hang on if I mess up my own career and help Man City win, Ajax will qualify for the Champions League group phases"
Pathetic!
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RCG

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #235 on: Sat 15 Aug 2020 16:03 »
Slight apologies to Lyon as it appears the issue was raised in the Dutch press by former international referee Dick Jol. Why he feels the need to stir the pot for a fellow countryman is beyond me.
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Ref Fan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #236 on: Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:11 »
There's been a lot of debate about Lyon's second goal last night and whether VAR should have intervened, not so much for the offside but for a possible foul by the scorer. 

For those of us who still get confused on the protocol (UEFA), please can someone clarify whether VAR could have got involved in the 'foul' incident?  I was under the impression that VAR, apart from offside was restricted to possible penalties or penalties awarded; the review of red cards issued or potentially missed for SFP and VC and the review of goals for possible hand ball for example.  I was reminded of a goal by United against Liverpool last season when there appeared to be a foul by the player who then passed the ball to the scorer and the suggestion was that VAR wouldn't have considered that.  In this instance, it was the scorer himself who may have committed the foul.

However, Makkelie may have called 'no foul' (after having put the whistle to his mouth according to Lineker).  It was a subjective decision.
So, did VAR not deem it 'clear and obvious' or couldn't he intervene anyway?
 

edy

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #237 on: Sun 16 Aug 2020 10:38 »
There's been a lot of debate about Lyon's second goal last night and whether VAR should have intervened, not so much for the offside but for a possible foul by the scorer. 

For those of us who still get confused on the protocol (UEFA), please can someone clarify whether VAR could have got involved in the 'foul' incident?  I was under the impression that VAR, apart from offside was restricted to possible penalties or penalties awarded; the review of red cards issued or potentially missed for SFP and VC and the review of goals for possible hand ball for example.  I was reminded of a goal by United against Liverpool last season when there appeared to be a foul by the player who then passed the ball to the scorer and the suggestion was that VAR wouldn't have considered that.  In this instance, it was the scorer himself who may have committed the foul.

However, Makkelie may have called 'no foul' (after having put the whistle to his mouth according to Lineker).  It was a subjective decision.
So, did VAR not deem it 'clear and obvious' or couldn't he intervene anyway?
 

From IFAB protocol:

2. Reviewable match-changing decisions/incidents

The referee may receive assistance from the VAR only in relation to four categories of match-changing decisions/incidents. In all these situations, the VAR is only used after the referee has made a (first/original) decision (including allowing play to continue), or if a serious incident is missed/not seen by the match officials.

The referee`s original decision will not be changed unless there was a ‘clear and obvious error’ (this includes any decision made by the referee based on information from another match official e.g. offside).

The categories of decision/incident which may be reviewed in the event of a potential ‘clear and obvious error’ or ‘serious missed incident’ are:

a. Goal/no goal

    attacking team offence in the build-up to or scoring of the goal (handball, foul, offside etc.)
I know that I know nothing
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Ref Fan

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #238 on: Sun 16 Aug 2020 11:30 »
Thanks edy.  That seems clear enough.  VAR could have looked at a possible foul and decided it was not a 'clear and obvious error'.
Out of interest, do you have an opinion on it if you have seen the incident?

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Re: 2019/20 UEFA Champions League
« Reply #239 on: Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:12 »
Taylor for the Final?