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Messages - Ashington46
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46
« on: Tue 05 Sep 2023 11:17 »
Incidentally, Dale Johnson suggests that the 'Independent Panel' has judged that VAR made two errors in the first 3 weeks of the season - the Man Utd V Wolves game and Liverpool V Bournemouth red card. He predicts that Man City V Fulham will be added to that list this week. I know there has been some speculation around other incidents, such as handball, but they were not regarded as VAR errors by the panel.
Perhaps there should be a further panel to review the decisions of the 'Independent Panel' and then another...
To quote Juvenal: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
As I said when VAR was introduced, it will only be a matter of time before the game is officiated by a committee, we are certainly getting nearer by the day. Such a shame.
47
« on: Sat 02 Sep 2023 17:04 »
Dear oh dear… do VAR officials know the offside law?
If Akanji isn’t interfering with play when he sticks a leg out from the header by Ake then all the rules need rewriting.
Terrible decision by VAR Harrington. If it’s a subjective decision which arguably it is, why didn’t Harrington send Oliver to the monitor.
Had the same thing at Turf Moor last weekend when Watkins was stood in front of the keeper when a shot came in and blocking his sight. Watkins jumped over the ball and was deemed not to be interfering.
48
« on: Sun 20 Aug 2023 10:59 »
I believe that both "contentious" decisions would have fallen into the cricket umpiring definition of "Umpire's call".
If we are to continue to seek 100% clarity / correctness on every decision then one of two things will happen:
~ The wording of the Laws of the Game will become even more unmanageably complicated (see handball and offside for examples of this).
~ Everyone is going to get more and more frustrated.
Possibly both!
There has to be - in a fast and fluid game such as football - areas where the referee makes a decision which is:
~ Not palpably wrong.
~ Not deemed 100% correct by all objective observers.
And yet accepted as a reasonable decision.
It may be the case that another referee in another game would reach a different decision but that does not make either incorrect. It already happens dozens of times in a game. If we stopped seeking the nirvana of 100% accuracy and concentrated on applying the Laws in a fair, consistent and reasonable way, the game would surely benefit.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't officials make decisions that were "Not palpably wrong" ----"Not deemed 100% correct by all objective observers" -- in the past and the game just continued with some discussion afterwards and then on to the next game. Leggy, your post is excellent and it is obvious that you think along the same lines as myself in the fact that, in spite of FIFA, UEFA, the FA, IFAB et al, we shall never have a perfect game of football. The introduction of some technology has been good for the game, provided that it works, however, the introduction of other technolgy, along with more officials needed to oversee its use, has clouded so many issues because all we have done is introduce more opinions as what is correct and what is not. As can be seen on any message board, there will always be differences of opinion and this is borne out by discussions about VAR on this board every week. In addition to the above, IFAB have messed around with The Laws of the Game and their interpretation and, as someone who has been involved at senior level for over 60 years, I now find that the game has become much less attractive to watch and I really feel for those officiating because quite a number don't seem to have a 'feel' for the game. Sadly, this is also now becoming more prevalent at the lower levels of the game. It used to be a simple game but.......................
49
« on: Mon 14 Aug 2023 12:43 »
Jota brandished imaginary card calling for his opponent to be cautioned
It is a shame British commentators are not like the Hungarian ones. A player did the waving the imaginary card at the ref and was duly awarded with a yellow card, the commentators were in fits of laughter saying things such as well he did ask for the card, he can't complain at getting what he asked for and his request for a card was not ignored so he really shouldn't complain about getting it. Our commentators are ace, they know the LOTG, call out dissent and play acting and are by and large supportive of the referee. They say if there's been an error but no big deal made of it, it'll be along the lines of he called that wrong and won't be happy with that decision when he sees the video after the game, and then move on. They explain the LOTG when a controversial decision is made either to support the decision or explain why it was wrong - so refreshing!
As a matter of interest bmb, how many commentators etc. are involved in the Hungarian games? On the subject of players asking for cards, I have been very much in favour of their receivnig one, as requested, for many, many years, however, I wonder just how long it will last until the PL instruct the FA that they are being too harsh and players are not being treated fairly by the officials. You just know that this will happen ----so sad!
51
« on: Sun 28 May 2023 22:18 »
Was following the live commentary of the game and a lot of negative vibes towards Coote. Sounds like a poor performance with erratic foul detection and nonsense yellow cards for nothing
I was not following this game, however, your last nine words, in my opinion, could be used for too many games being played these days. We seem to be getting further and further away from the game which I have watched, been involved in at various levels in many countries for 70 plus years and now find doesn't give me very much enjoyment at the top level. Fortunately, I am still able to enjoy the many non-league games which I still go to because they do not have any digital involvement at all.
52
« on: Sat 27 May 2023 17:17 »
Let’s hope Tom Lockyer is ok after the medical incident on the field.
Thoughts to him and all connected.
Sincerely hope that he is okay, very sad to see and I echo your thoughts.
53
« on: Thu 25 May 2023 10:34 »
Also, corners where the ball has a distant relationship with the arc!!! Perhaps the law should require themajority of the ball should be inside the arc.
Has any senior referee ever permitted the same positioning of the ball in respect to the penalty spot?
I have seen the ball positioned with just part overhanging the spot on several occasions this season. It is within the Laws as they are interpreted these days.
Nothing to do with how they are interpreted, it is how they are written. For the ball to be in the corner arc it just needs to be touching the line, just the same a a ball touching the touchline is still in play. Not really sure what your point is.
Not touching - overhanging!
Oh yes, which is exactly how goal line technology determines a goal. If one small part of the ball is overhanging the line, it is not a goal and this applies in every other aspect of the game, although the human eye would find it very difficult to judge millimetres in this aspect, similar to so many throws which are given when the whole of the ball has not crossed the whole of the line. No doubt the powers that be will be introducing more technology to rectify that situation at some point.
The quest for the perfect game goes on relentlessly, it is such a shame that they can't get rid of the humans who play it and officiate.
You started this thread though, so tell us what you think was wrong with the throw based on the current law. That is the key thing here.
I was not just referring to that one throw, it was a generalisation as to the number of foul throws which are ignored at every game. Simple things such as the back foot being lifted when throws are taken on the move, ball never going behind the head just thrown from level with the forehead.
As you correctly stated, as the law stands, the one handed throw is legal because he has two hands on the ball.
It is just another instance of the game being played with little relevance to the Laws but 'they' say that it makes it more entertaining.
I disagree. In spite of all the efforts by those running the game to make the game a better spectacle, this year has seen the most average goals per game in the PL since its inception, however, it still only averages 2.83 goals per game, in fact, three PL seasons are 119, 120 and 122 in the list of average goals per game in 124 seasons.
Possession is the big thing these days, however, it is still goals which win games.
Between 1950/51 and 1966/67 every season featured at keast 3 goals per game with the highest average being 3.73, however, according to modern thinking, football was crap. I suppose that it must have been because Burnley were Champions of England in 1959/60, a season which averaged 3.50 goals per game, however, they had no good players.
I stand defeated. No, I'm getting on a bit now so -----I sit defeated and begin to wonder what constitutes handball, what is a foul throw, what further changes will IFAB introduce to the interpretation of TLOG to accommodate those participating at the highest level etc., etc.
I have recently seen a player cautioned for time wasting when he requested that his opponent retreated 10 yards before he took a free kick. The referee would have none of that and booked the player waiting to take the free kick without even speaking to the offender. Still, I suppose that it makes the game more entertaining for those of us who pay to watch.
They had a number of excellent players who I can still remember today.
nemesis, of course they did, along with Ipswich and many other teams, however, you have to remember that, when you listen to lots of fans today, good football and smashing footballers didn't exist until 1992/93.
54
« on: Wed 24 May 2023 22:35 »
Also, corners where the ball has a distant relationship with the arc!!! Perhaps the law should require themajority of the ball should be inside the arc.
Has any senior referee ever permitted the same positioning of the ball in respect to the penalty spot?
I have seen the ball positioned with just part overhanging the spot on several occasions this season. It is within the Laws as they are interpreted these days.
Nothing to do with how they are interpreted, it is how they are written. For the ball to be in the corner arc it just needs to be touching the line, just the same a a ball touching the touchline is still in play. Not really sure what your point is.
Not touching - overhanging!
Oh yes, which is exactly how goal line technology determines a goal. If one small part of the ball is overhanging the line, it is not a goal and this applies in every other aspect of the game, although the human eye would find it very difficult to judge millimetres in this aspect, similar to so many throws which are given when the whole of the ball has not crossed the whole of the line. No doubt the powers that be will be introducing more technology to rectify that situation at some point.
The quest for the perfect game goes on relentlessly, it is such a shame that they can't get rid of the humans who play it and officiate.
You started this thread though, so tell us what you think was wrong with the throw based on the current law. That is the key thing here.
I was not just referring to that one throw, it was a generalisation as to the number of foul throws which are ignored at every game. Simple things such as the back foot being lifted when throws are taken on the move, ball never going behind the head just thrown from level with the forehead. As you correctly stated, as the law stands, the one handed throw is legal because he has two hands on the ball. It is just another instance of the game being played with little relevance to the Laws but 'they' say that it makes it more entertaining. I disagree. In spite of all the efforts by those running the game to make the game a better spectacle, this year has seen the most average goals per game in the PL since its inception, however, it still only averages 2.83 goals per game, in fact, three PL seasons are 119, 120 and 122 in the list of average goals per game in 124 seasons. Possession is the big thing these days, however, it is still goals which win games. Between 1950/51 and 1966/67 every season featured at keast 3 goals per game with the highest average being 3.73, however, according to modern thinking, football was crap. I suppose that it must have been because Burnley were Champions of England in 1959/60, a season which averaged 3.50 goals per game, however, they had no good players. I stand defeated. No, I'm getting on a bit now so -----I sit defeated and begin to wonder what constitutes handball, what is a foul throw, what further changes will IFAB introduce to the interpretation of TLOG to accommodate those participating at the highest level etc., etc. I have recently seen a player cautioned for time wasting when he requested that his opponent retreated 10 yards before he took a free kick. The referee would have none of that and booked the player waiting to take the free kick without even speaking to the offender. Still, I suppose that it makes the game more entertaining for those of us who pay to watch.
55
« on: Wed 24 May 2023 09:48 »
Also, corners where the ball has a distant relationship with the arc!!! Perhaps the law should require themajority of the ball should be inside the arc.
Has any senior referee ever permitted the same positioning of the ball in respect to the penalty spot?
I have seen the ball positioned with just part overhanging the spot on several occasions this season. It is within the Laws as they are interpreted these days.
Nothing to do with how they are interpreted, it is how they are written. For the ball to be in the corner arc it just needs to be touching the line, just the same a a ball touching the touchline is still in play. Not really sure what your point is.
Not touching - overhanging!
Oh yes, which is exactly how goal line technology determines a goal. If one small part of the ball is overhanging the line, it is not a goal and this applies in every other aspect of the game, although the human eye would find it very difficult to judge millimetres in this aspect, similar to so many throws which are given when the whole of the ball has not crossed the whole of the line. No doubt the powers that be will be introducing more technology to rectify that situation at some point. The quest for the perfect game goes on relentlessly, it is such a shame that they can't get rid of the humans who play it and officiate.
56
« on: Tue 23 May 2023 21:22 »
Also, corners where the ball has a distant relationship with the arc!!! Perhaps the law should require themajority of the ball should be inside the arc.
Has any senior referee ever permitted the same positioning of the ball in respect to the penalty spot?
I have seen the ball positioned with just part overhanging the spot on several occasions this season. It is within the Laws as they are interpreted these days.
57
« on: Sun 21 May 2023 13:59 »
Watching West Ham v Leeds and I have just seen Weston McKennie take three one handed throws, one from which Rodrigo scored.
It is not just this game that I have noticed that he gets away with it, his long throws are always one-handed, as
can be seen with the amount of spin which is on the ball because his right hand propels the flight.
In addition, the number of players who get away with lifting their back foot or just dropping the ball is getting crazy.
Nit-picking? Possibly. Against the LOTG? Definitely.
58
« on: Wed 17 May 2023 16:19 »
Interesting topic about the safety of players etc., particularly when we see what happened at Elland Road at the weekend. Imagine the furore if that game had been abandoned, sadly this could be the case and could be used by fans to affect results.
Nothing is easy these days.
That is something we discussed off record. Supporters using it as an opportunity to disrupt the opposition particularly if their own team are losing badly or maybe if a penalty has been awarded against them. It could also be used to get the opposition team in trouble by away fans if sanctions were to go against the home team for any disruption. Home fans in the away end or vice versa deliberately tarnishing the oppositions reputation by behaving badly knowing the blame would be put on them. What the available sanctions are - eg. points deduction, automatic 3-0 defeat if the game is abandoned, fines, sections of the ground being closed and what you would then do if it were away fans - would their ultras section be closed at their next home game etc. Lots of options available but what would be the most effective/fair. We concluded that we were both glad that we are not the ones who have to make the decisions!
These are all points which came to mind when I was reading the interview and it is good to know that you discussed them off the record. It really could end up in a real mess with the way that some fans behave. Please may I join your non-decision making club?
59
« on: Tue 16 May 2023 19:18 »
Very true, and I do appreciate that I am living in a dream world if I believe that all of this can quickly come to pass. But Howard Webb is very influential within the game and could agitate for these changes as a "Manifesto to Renew Football" with those bodies that do have the power to make the changes.
I think he will, especially around allowing live VAR audio broadcasts. But he may well be banging his head against brick walls, there will be some very big egos that he will be up against, all thinking that their ideas are the right ones.
rustyref, surely you aren't insinuating that there is a certain amount of 'Empire Building' involved in those running the game ---are you? 
60
« on: Tue 16 May 2023 19:14 »
Dank u wel, bmb, het was erg interessant ---and the KNVB statement also helped me to keep up my Dutch revision.
Some very interesting views and an insight into the very similar problems which we are experiencing in the UK. I can only wish him well, however, I feel that society will need to regain some of the respect which existed a number of years ago in order to make any marked difference in the efforts by officials to control some games.
Interesting topic about the safety of players etc., particularly when we see what happened at Elland Road at the weekend. Imagine the furore if that game had been abandoned, sadly this could be the case and could be used by fans to affect results.
Nothing is easy these days.
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