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Messages - Leggy

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I don't say this very often but after Wednesday's spectacle it was a pleasure to see a balanced display from Anthony Taylor.  West Ham could well have had a penalty though it probably fell within the ubiquitous "not a clear and obvious error" category much beloved of VAR - I can think of one referee who wouldn't have hesitated to give it.  Rhodri (I think) should have had a yellow card for a pull back where advantage was played. 
Other than that I can think of a handful of free kicks which seemed to me to have more to do with exaggerated reaction to minimal contact than the severity of the challenge.  Simulation seems to be a part of the game now.  Whether Taylor was more perceptive than the Latvian or whether Porto - who appeared to have been schooled in the dark arts by Lord Voldermort himself - were simply more adept is a matter of opinion.

If you play advantage for a foul that would be classed as stopping a promising attack, you cannot go back and caution the player - new rule for this season!

If that's true its a nonsense.  Correction - another nonsense.

I couldn't lip read, but it has triggered me thinking that (and whilst women don't want to be treated differently from men I do think that the women's game is generally less physical) women's football could advance from 2 cards.
A yellow card - you've been warned that you're 1 card away from spending time on the naughty step.
An orange card - results in 10 minutes on the naughty step, either because it's a 2nd yellow or it's "worse" than yellow but not red.
A red card - dismissal, either because it's a 3rd yellow or 2nd orange or (obviously) serious foul play.
Most women players would, I think, want to play 11 v 11 unless something is warranted.
Perhaps the difficult aspect of this is DOGSO - personally I'd prefer orange to red unless there's serious foul play - for other sports (such as rugby & hockey) the advantage of having 10 minutes against reduced opposition does usually result in a benefit to the non-offending team.
Whilst the crowds are away (or significantly reduced) there are so many potential low-lying fruit which once harvested would really improve football for all concerned. And there's no real reason why a stand-alone competition couldn't trial law changes at any stage of the season. If VAR can be brought in at the latter rounds for instance ...... so can other law changes, or are my spectacles too tinted?

I think a 3 card system would be too complicated, subjective and lead to even more arguments etc. than we have now.

And errors .....

General Discussion / Re: Merseyside Derby
« on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 10:39 »
Liverpool have asked for an explanation on the VAR decisions for today, specifically looking at 3 areas.

  • Why no review and subsequent action on Pickford chall?
  • Which part of Mane's body deemed offside?
  • At what moment did VAR decide to freeze-frame?

Source - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/12106875/liverpool-ask-premier-league-to-investigate-var-decisions-during-draw-at-everton

1st part is easy - VAR protocol does not factor it in.  To determine if it was a penalty/red the first thing to establish was whether he was offside or not. As he was then the check effectively ends as there can be no penalty. Hopefully if nothing else it will lead to another review of the VAR protocol as it currently stands and it will be extended to allow for review to determine if there is a red card offence that follows despite the offside ruling out a penalty. There has to be more common sense allowed to be used, imo. For me this is exactly what VAR should be looking at instead of seeing if a toenail or eyelash or something equally ridiculous is 0.1mm offside!

Sorry to disagree, but VAR is also available to check for red card offences.  The ball does not have to be in play for a red card offence to be (allegedly) committed and require the attention of the VAR.  His inattention was a grave error.

General Discussion / Re: Merseyside Derby
« on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 10:35 »
Player is marginally offside, however, the flag does not go up as per instructions these days, and play goes on and the keeper makes a genuine attempt to play the ball which results in the offside player being injured and having to leave the field.
VAR looks at the situation to see if a penalty should be awarded but the eveidence shows that the player was offside, therefore, that is the first offence and the offside is given.

Are we then going to dismiss a keeper for a genuine attempt to play the ball, bearing in mind that it could well have been the keeper who was injured and had to leave the field.  Those running the game have manufactured these situations  and the use of VAR is compounding the issue.

In the same incident in any game in England outside the Premier League, the offside would have been flagged but because of the speed of the game the keeper would still have challenged and it would be possible  that players are injured, however, the free  kick would have been given for offside and everyone gets on with the game.
The monster has been created in an effort to make the game 100% perfect.

I am not sure that it is a "genuine attempt to play the ball" - but that loses any relevance when considering Serious Foul Play:

Did the challenge endanger the safety of an opponent?  100% yes. 

Should Pickford have been sanctioned as such?  100% yes.

Should Oliver have seen it?  Almost certainly - he had a decent viewing eye-line.

Should Coote - which access to technology and as much time as he needs identified it?  100% yes.

I am not sure if the "collision" would not have happened had the flag been raised instantly and Oliver's whistle stopped play - there was very little time.  I am sure, however, that this nonsense of telling AR's to hold their flag and see what happens next is going to end with a serious injury one day soon.

General Discussion / Re: GIL MANZANO - England v Denmark
« on: Fri 16 Oct 2020 07:04 »
A performance of absolute garbage.... from England.

As for Manzano, very typical of Spanish referees, inconsistent and too quick to the cards.

Yes Maguire deserved to go, and if James has spoken out of turn at the end then he should be ashamed.

Penalty was a joke, and some Danish challenges were more severe than what was carded for England.

Agree.  The object of the game appears to be morphing from "score more goals than the opposing team" into "creating fouls and conning officials into giving penalties and red cards".
I agree with much of what you say there.  However, I can see why the penalty was given.  There was clear foot-to-foot contact from Walker.  I think it is a joke that penalties are given for incidents such as that, but it seems that's how the game has developed. 

The game at top level has a serious problem now, since we are seeing penalties given for the least bit of contact, much of the time having been played for by attacking players.  I seriously believe that the game is becoming so sterile that coaches are simply encouraging players to manufacture set piece free kicks and penalties at any opportunity as they are less and less likely to score any other way.  The England-Denmark match was the latest international that was tedious to the point of being unwatchable.  One pundit advocated picking Grealish because he gets fouled (or at least falls over) a lot.

I despair for the game generally because of these attitudes.  I saw a bit of the post-match discussion after the England-Belgium game where Ashley Cole started going on about how a player can feel a bit of contact in the penalty area so 'has to go down'.  I switched off at that point. What a situation!  Advocating diving, conning the referee, cheating....call it what you like but it stinks!   Suffice to say that I no longer pay to go and watch football, I've seen enough.

Ross' expenses will be low as he spends most of his time in London 😏

But then a quick turnaround ......

League C - Group 1
10 October 2020, 15:00 CET - City of Luxembourg (Stade Josy Barthel)
Luxembourg - Cyprus
Referee: Donald Robertson (SCO)
Assistant Referee 1: Graeme Stewart (SCO)
Assistant Referee 2: Douglas Ross (SCO)
Fourth Official: Andrew Dallas (SCO)
UEFA Referee Observer: Stefan Messner (AUT)
UEFA Delegate: Roland Tis (BEL)

General Discussion / Re: Peter Bankes- Tottenham Newcastle
« on: Sun 27 Sep 2020 18:54 »
I just saw it. Bankes decision is in accordance with the LOTG. No real complaints.

Then the Law - as Charles Dickens wrote in Oliver Twist - is an ass.

According to the VAR protocol, the review process can take place AFTER the final whistle.

Excellent intervention by Simon Hooper.

How long after? Could the players be in the shower and then made to come back?

IFAB doesn't say. Apparently they are more interested in accuracy than the time.

So common sense would suggest that the referee - even if he has blown the final whistle - tells the players to stay on the field of play while the VAR check takes place

Just as happens in cricket when the 10th wicket of an innings is reviewed - even if it is a wildly speculatively review because the team still has one to burn.

Opps - sorry, I have just realised that I have cited "common sense" - many apologies all  ;)

That will act as a deterrent to both Bilic and his counterparts ....... or maybe not.

I see that Bilic has "accepted" the £8k fine but still says that he has done nothing wrong.  That tells you everything you need to know about the effectiveness of the sanction.

At least it has made handball more consistent. There used to be lots of discussion about whether an incident such as Trent Alexander-Arnold's handling last season agI do find it easier to judge a handball offence now, even if I don't personally agree.

It's basically gone in the PL from a player getting a lot of the benefit of the doubt if the ball hit their hand to them being given very little. A lot was required for handball in England previously, but now if the ball hits your hand it's likely to be penalised if VAR is in use unless your hand is very close to your body.

Perhaps it makes it more consistent if the offence happens in the penalty area, however, there were several instances of handball, similar to those leading to penalties in the games discussed, which were committed in general play and these were not penalised. 

The question which then arises is are we playing to different laws in the penalty area to those used on the rest of the field because some are covered by VAR but others are not?

We are, because VAR has the ability to forensically review (from several angles) and spot contact that cannot be conclusively determined using the naked eye from a set position (be that a good or not-so-good one).  And VAR is only used to determine potential penalty offences.  As a result we get more handball "offences" in the penalty area than pretty much anywhere else of the Field of Play.

Not sure about the penalty -Lindelof is very close to Zaha, 1 yard away, and natural movement of his arm when running back.
The handball rule is an absolute con; we are going to see so many ridiculous handballs this season
I'm sorry - in what godly earth, is an arm bent at head height "natural" ?

If you look at it again his hand isn’t at head height. When you run your arms are going to come up naturally, you can’t run with your arms by your side

Agree.  Before the law-makers start quoting "natural / un-natural positions" and "enlarging the body silhoulette" they should engage bio-mechanic experts to determine - in all playing situations (running / stretching / jumping / falling) - what is / is not natural.

We are rapidly approaching the stage where a forward with not reasonable attacking option will just aim the ball at the defender's body in the hope of securing a penalty kick.  It has been a legitimate tactic in hockey with penalty corners for some years now ...... watch this space!

Sorry, the game is a travesty if you’re going to penalise goalkeepers for that!
No advantage gained whatsoever and it is physically impossible for a goalkeeper to stay on his line and dive.
They’d be as well starting two yards behind the line if this is the precedent!!

"it is physically impossible for a goalkeeper to stay on his line and dive"

Errr - no it is not.

Ashington is 100% correct in his question.  Bilic justified his actions later by saying "he had the right" to offer the referee his opinion and to ask for justification for the referees' actions.  Where? 

Premier League and Football League managers have more access to the match officials (directly and indirectly) than at any other level, but this supposed right does not exist.  Although the wording, structure and content of Law Five has changed since I took the exam back in 1980-frozen-to-death; it never has said that the referee has a duty to stand there and take dog's abuse (dressed up and polite enquiries) from players, coaches, etc.  Nor does it say they have a duty to justify their decisions to platers, coaches, etc.

As for the penalties, the original decision was absurd (bit correct) and the retake was a matter of fact.  The fact that many other instances go unpunished does not make the decision incorrect.  Try running that argument to a traffic policeman when he is booking you for 35mph in a 30 zone.

I was also "instructed" by Arthur Jones at Lincoln (in the Bishop Grosseteste Teacher Training College) in the late 1980s (or maybe early 90s?) 1992 ***. 

He took our second year and started the week by each one of us giving a presentation to allegedly display what we had learnt at last year's course and subsequently.  We all did our short presentations and - as a group - felt quite smug.  Arthur Jones said little, sucked on his pipe for a few seconds and then burst our bubble with the words:  "Gentlemen, we have a lot of work to do". 

I never saw him referee, but Arthur was a great instructor - we did the work and benefited from his experience and expertise.

*** Edited to provide the correct year.  I recounted the story to Mrs Leggy last night and she reminded me that was the year we met (which I should have remembered and  - at some point later this week - I will be able to exit the dog house :-[)

Select Group 2 / Re: Fri 11th & Sat 12th SEP 2020
« on: Sun 13 Sep 2020 10:29 »
Are you sure that your friends are not conflating the two ex-FL referees' named Singh?  In my experience (I worked with both) Jarnail was much better than his namesake.

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