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Messages - Leggy

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511
I Spy Old Refs! / Re: Linesmen 1945-46 - first names?
« on: Fri 01 Jan 2021 15:47 »
120   Kenney   E   J      Bexley Heath   KEN

Edward, known as Ted, Kenney.  He was the referees' appointment secretary of the South London Alliance when I started refereeing in the 1980s.

512
General Discussion / Re: D ENGLAND - Fulham v Southampton
« on: Thu 31 Dec 2020 10:41 »
In my experience the 4th official would be asked to create a "stoppages" log, i.e. make a note of all stoppages for subs, injuries, lengthy goal restarts, etc.  Then towards the end of each half either the referee will say I'm going to play x minutes, do you agree, or the 4th official will suggest a time and the referee will agree or disagree.

The main benefit of this approach is that if either team complain about the added time, be it either too little or too much, the 4th official can clearly show how it has been constructed.

So you are suggesting that on the many, many occasions our top referees are criminally negligent with their abysmal timekeeping it's not just one man at fault but he has an accomplice as well ?


At the risk of making the gap between the grass roots and the elite even greater, perhaps there should be a timekeeper and perhaps the time should only elapse when the ball in actually in play?  To do that, the period of play in each half would probably need to be reduced to 30 or 35 minutes though.
Sadly referees have shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted to keep time properly. Fair enough, they have plenty of other things to worry about. Give the job to someone else.

Where did I say that?  They time the subs, they time the injuries, they time anything else that is classed as a significant stoppage.  They write it all down, add it all up, and come to the added time.

Remember that the ball is only in play for an average of 29 minutes in a half of a football game, and that is at the top level.  No one is expecting 16 minutes stoppage time, and that is where the timekeeper element falls a bit flat


2nd attempt (I made a hash of the first  :-[)

At the risk of making the gap between the grass roots and the elite even greater, perhaps there should be a timekeeper and perhaps the time should only elapse when the ball in actually in play?  To do that, the period of play in each half would probably need to be reduced to 30 or 35 minutes though.


513
General Discussion / Re: D ENGLAND - Fulham v Southampton
« on: Thu 31 Dec 2020 09:41 »
In my experience the 4th official would be asked to create a "stoppages" log, i.e. make a note of all stoppages for subs, injuries, lengthy goal restarts, etc.  Then towards the end of each half either the referee will say I'm going to play x minutes, do you agree, or the 4th official will suggest a time and the referee will agree or disagree.

The main benefit of this approach is that if either team complain about the added time, be it either too little or too much, the 4th official can clearly show how it has been constructed.

So you are suggesting that on the many, many occasions our top referees are criminally negligent with their abysmal timekeeping it's not just one man at fault but he has an accomplice as well ?


At the risk of making the gap between the grass roots and the elite even greater, perhaps there should be a timekeeper and perhaps the time should only elapse when the ball in actually in play?  To do that, the period of play in each half would probably need to be reduced to 30 or 35 minutes though.
Sadly referees have shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted to keep time properly. Fair enough, they have plenty of other things to worry about. Give the job to someone else.

Where did I say that?  They time the subs, they time the injuries, they time anything else that is classed as a significant stoppage.  They write it all down, add it all up, and come to the added time.

Remember that the ball is only in play for an average of 29 minutes in a half of a football game, and that is at the top level.  No one is expecting 16 minutes stoppage time, and that is where the timekeeper element falls a bit flat

514
General Discussion / Re: Harrogate V Carlisle
« on: Wed 30 Dec 2020 12:53 »
Can't see what the problem was, played in worse!  ;)

515
General Discussion / Re: Lee Mason - Burnley v Wolves
« on: Wed 23 Dec 2020 17:35 »
I definitely think there's an argument for having a system in place where the worst performing referee(s) over say a two or three year average are demoted from SG1 and SG2 - it ensures each referee gets more than one season to settle in but means you are replacing the consistently lower performing officials and avoiding any sense of complacency.

Of course, as with Stuart Attwell and I believe Uriah Rennie, any referee demoted should have the opportunity to be promoted again should their performances be good enough.

Problem is they are employees.  I get a rating in my employment every year, but that doesn't mean they can demote me or fire me if I consistently fall in the lower grades.  Obviously all companies have systems where those consistently not delivering get put on performance improvement plans, but this is a lengthy process.  Anything they do with regards to retention has to fit within employment law.  Much easier at lower levels, hence why retention policies there are set in stone and pretty ruthless.

If the performance management, promotion and demotion processes are set out in writing before any employees takes on a role and if these are reasonable then they can do this.  Examples could include:

~ Someone who falls into the bottom 15% of the published merit list for two consecutive seasons would be demoted;

~ Someone who makes the top 15% of the published merit list for two consecutive seasons would be promoted;

~ Referees / employees above a certain age could be required to meet a higher performance hurdle to retain their place on the list.  Although this is - on the face of it - age discriminatory - it can be used as a reasonable away of maintaining a pipeline of future referees / employees.

The problem with this approach is that the merit table would need to be overt - something that I believe they would be reluctant to do.


516
The words "dog's" and "breakfast" come to mind.

We now have a disciplinary sanction that was made following umpteen reviews by the VAR followed by a further two reviews by the on field referee found to be incorrect and overturned.

As the young'uns might say:  "WTF"?

517
Daniel James in the Man United v Leeds match and it was a poor decision by Anthony Taylor.

Thanks for filling in the (considerable) gaps in my original post.  For what it is worth, the radio guys thought it was a "harsh" caution.

518
Just about the only PL manager who has made his views known about players diving in order to con the officials was ridiculed by the media and told that it was boring that he kept mentioning it. I think that he has now given up the ghost completely.

On that particular matter, Dyche is spot on, as was Scott Parker last night.  We need them making their point alongside others, and fining players for clear diving.  Many cases of VAR where we've seen no contact / no penalty have seen no punishment whatsoever for diving. 

Can anyone remember more than 3 occasions this season of yellows for simulation???

A player was cautioned for simulation yesterday.  Can't remember who or in which game, but heard it on the radio commentary.

519
You need to watch more closely, Anderson's foot definitely catches Wilson's foot sole well inside the penalty area.  Whether that was enough to take him down is debatable, but once VAR see that they can't possibly say it was a clear and obvious error to award the penalty.

Just a question - do they distinguish between a foul 'continuing' into the area and what could in fact be 2 separate fouls - the first outside and a second inside by the same player?

It did look to me as though there was a holding offence outside the penalty area followed by a very slight clip of the foot inside the penalty area.  Whilst the contact was very slight, at high speed and with the other foot off the ground and with the attacker's knowledge that only by falling to the ground will be be awarded the penalty that he believes he deserves - the outcome was inevitable.  And, under the Laws and VAR protocols of today ...... correct.

Whether we like that or not is another matter ......

520
General Discussion / Re: Jon Moss - oh dear, oh dear
« on: Mon 14 Dec 2020 07:08 »
Taking things away from this specific incident (which I have not seen), there is an argument that a foul challenge does terminate a promising attack.  If there is a good advantage and the referee allows play to continue then the attacking team has created another attacking opportunity out of the debris of the foul challenge.

I am not saying that a caution (when the ball next goes out of play) should follow, but that it could.

The change in law is yet another example of law-makers fiddling and unnecessarily over-complicating what should be a simple game.

521
General Discussion / Re: M OLIVER - Leeds v West Ham
« on: Sun 13 Dec 2020 12:49 »
On another matter, is there an argument for permitting the goal-keeper (as a penalty kick) to stand behind the goal-line before the kick is taken?  This would allow movement so long as the goal-keeper - at the instant the kick is take - is not in front of the goal-line.

I like that idea. Gives them the opportunity to move, which is completely natural and instinctive and yet remain within the LOTG.

Bring this in I say for all penalties

https://youtu.be/GFLTIpcZxh8


This is what happens in (field) hockey.  Dead exciting - watch the 2016 Women's Olympic Final for a example (and a GB win!!).

Edited to fix the quote thingamajigga, bmb.

522
General Discussion / Re: M OLIVER - Leeds v West Ham
« on: Sat 12 Dec 2020 13:12 »
I think the issue with a player pulling an opponent or grabbing a shirt is that there can be no doubt as to the player's intentions - and a caution is almost always the correct outcome.

With a foul tackle, there can be a case where the intention was to play the ball but that player's competence, timing and/or judgement is off and the result is a foul.  A caution here is not inevitable, but could be the outcome.

And, yes, I do know that "intent" is no longer the critical criteria in determining a foul; but it does remain important when considering a caution.

On another matter, is there an argument for permitting the goal-keeper (as a penalty kick) to stand behind the goal-line before the kick is taken?  This would allow movement so long as the goal-keeper - at the instant the kick is take - is not in front of the goal-line.

523
Why not let Ovidu Haetagan have the game and just replace the fourth official

I wonder if Haetagan was not happy for his "team mate" and compatriot to be replaced and declined to continue without him?

524
Mr Moyes, despite what he said, wasn't watching the ball as he was stood clapping and encouraging his players further up the pitch.

Football manager re-writes history to suit his purposes ....... in other news .......

525
A very good performance by Marriner personally I think he had got better in the last few years his performances have been very good and rarely attracts controversy

Yesterdayís game good fitness his foul detection was spot on and played some good advantages, for the Pogba goal I attach no blame to Marriner, and if Iím correct in my assumption that the AR Simon Long would have have been looking out for a possible offside soon as the ball left Hendersonís foot therefore it would have been just unlucky that he missed it go out therefore if that is indeed the case I attach no blame to Simon Long either

He physically could be looking in two places - which were at a 90 degree angle to each other - at the same time.

I am sure if Andre had taken the word of the West Ham United manager and awarded the throw-in, OGS and his crew would have been cool with that ..... :o 

Surely a linesman is there to see if the ball goes out of play......it was blatantly out of play.....I used to run the line at semi pro level and would be horrified if I missed that. Where was var when you actually needed it...........rather than getting involved when you don't??


So did I.  I am not sure which would horrify me more ..... missing the ball out of play or missing an offside call resulting in a goal?  From memory, there were more of the latter than the former that worried me.

Edited to fix the quote thingamajigga, bmb

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