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Messages - Leggy
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481
« on: Sat 27 Feb 2021 10:33 »
Lots of comments on another site (law5-theref.blogspot.com) about the referee ending the game "in line with UEFA protocol". I'm probably confused, as I thought that after Clive Thomas's WC fiasco (Sweden v Brazil), play should be allowed to proceed until the ball is out of play. In practice, I reckon we would probably end the game once the attacking team has lost the ball or plays the ball backwards. In rugby, the ball has to be out of play. Lots of understandable emotion - but, if time is up before a corner is taken, do you end the game? Would you end the game before a FK is taken? Seems that there's UEFA protocol at the top end of the game! Perhaps needless to write, but conspiracy theories aplenty given it was a Spanish referee (Manzona) and an Italian side won in questionable circumstances.
So if you end the first half or the game when the attacking team has a corner, free-kick or promising attack ..... you will get it in the neck from the attacking team. If you allow "additional time" to let the corner / free-kick or promising attack to play out and a goal ensues ..... you will get it in the neck from the defending side. If you adopt the Rugby Union approach it will affect the way in which the final minutes of each game are played, and not in a good way. Perhaps, just perhaps, referees should apply the laws of the game and blow for time when time expires?
483
« on: Fri 26 Feb 2021 06:53 »
But do they own part (or all?) of the organisation the appoints the match officials?
Genuine question, as I do not know.
484
« on: Thu 25 Feb 2021 16:17 »
Please tell me this is a **** take! If the FA really want to give refs a hand, deal with player and manager behaviour far more effectively.
The premiership rugby highlights on channel 5 on Monday gave me good for thought. Last weekend, 5 red cards were issued in the premiership. The pundit on the highlights show said words to the effect: “rugby has decided that tackles that hit the should no longer be tolerated and so referees are now issuing red cards. It’s like football - if they really wanted to deal with player behaviour then referees should issue several red cards. It would be a sore point for a couple of weeks, but players and clubs would have to learn pretty darn quick!”
I suspect the difference between rugby and football is that the rugby authorities, who are charged with ensuring the good order and conduct of the game, have far more independence and authority separate from the influence of the major clubs and therefore can do things without bending to that undue influence. Perhaps someone like RCG who is particularly knowledgeable about rugby might confirm that. In football, such is the financial muscle which the big clubs exert, the FA has become supine and lacks authority to do anything of which the big clubs disapprove. The clubs don't want to lose players through suspension and so are set against any reforms which may enhance a referee's on-field respect and authority. Meaningless gestures have no such effect and so can be supported.
If the shareholders of PGMOL are (directly or indirectly) the clubs then there is a fundamental conflict of interest.
485
« on: Tue 23 Feb 2021 16:09 »
It is only the logical extension / exaggeration of what is already happening in most top flite leagues.
486
« on: Tue 23 Feb 2021 07:54 »
Oh for the days when teams weren't allowed to play in black or very dark colours eh?
Incidentally I think I recall a post indicating that "top level" referees are instructed by the competition which shirt to wear (The teams having been required to advise the competition of their intended colours)
When I was administrating a team our colours formed part of the confirmation email to the opposition and referee
I believe the PL do choose the colour, but how do they get it wrong so often? So many games in PL where a goalkeeper is in black and so are the officials, despite other choices being an option. Shouldn’t be hard to get it right!
Martin & team obviously had the purple shirts with them, so why not use them from the outset, as black was clearly never going to be great.
There are only four referee shirt colours, and sometimes it is just impossible to avoid a clash. So it is best to clash with one of the keepers, and they can't ask the keeper to change as that affects sponsorship agreements. I would also say as I always do, why does it matter that the referee clashes with a keeper, but that is just my view.
Of bigger concern are things like yesterday. Arsenal vs Man City, rather plan play in their usual blue City play in white, including white sleeves that completely clashed with Arsenal. That's a nightware for assistants, how can you judge offside when both teams are wearing the same coloured sleeves?
"Nightware for assistants" - would that be the Lino's Pyjamas? 
487
« on: Mon 22 Feb 2021 16:30 »
Oh for the days when teams weren't allowed to play in black or very dark colours eh?
Incidentally I think I recall a post indicating that "top level" referees are instructed by the competition which shirt to wear (The teams having been required to advise the competition of their intended colours)
When I was administrating a team our colours formed part of the confirmation email to the opposition and referee
How about this for a way forward ...... we (match officials) will wear black - you (teams) don't ?? I do realise that I am a dinosaur and need pensioning off, but this did work for about 100 years. It was only our Caledonian cousins in their national team kit that caused a problem - with a rare sighting of the red, or yellow referee's shirt for the odd Home International match - apart from that, black seemed to work fine.
488
« on: Sun 21 Feb 2021 11:10 »
Read thro the posts before only now seeing the incident
The defender has, wittingly or otherwise, tripped the striker by being where he was, grounded or not
Thats a penalty kick, clear as day. The only issue i see is VAR even suggesting the referee reviewed it
I too would concur with the apparent bewilderment as referee being advised to have another look at what is in reality a straightforward call.
A similar clip was doing rounds on a UEFA coaching course around ten years ago,
Does it look. Fair? Prob not,
Is it the attacker who is tripped by the defender, in the box? Yes. Penalty kick
This was a foul challenge. It was not intentional but it was a foul challenge, by a defender, on an attacker within the penalty area. So the outcome is a penalty kick. There was also a strong argument for DOGSO. Had the foul challenge not taken place, then the attacker would have been on his feet and able to put the ball into a goal unguarded by the goal-keeper. There was a defender in the vicinity, but not in a position to prevent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity. The DOGSO "defence" that the defender was making a genuine attempt to play the ball does not apply and the fact that the contact was accidental does not prevent a red card for DOGSO (perhaps it should?). Finally, Kavanaugh's brief stint looking at the monitor reminded me of a number of time when we were trying to persuade a young child to try a food that they had already decided they did not like. (" Just have a taste, you have never eaten it before, you might like it") After the most tiny taste, the pre-decided conclusion is confirmed. 
489
« on: Fri 19 Feb 2021 11:25 »
Ah yes - my mistake
Note to self, need an eye test - all those fans heckling me over the years may have had a point.
Well, at least I was able to inadvertently endorse the original comment!!
490
« on: Fri 19 Feb 2021 06:56 »
According to The Times, it is thought to be the first time the FA has brought a case against a senior referee since 2000 when Paul Taylor was charged with making insulting remarks to Notts County's Sean Farrell. Taylor was cleared by a disciplinary commission three months later. Darren, a 50 year old RAF sergeant, has been on the FL list since 2004.
I think Paul Taylor was one of the last referees who liked to have a bit of banter with the players.
I am taking that with a bit of (sarcastic) salt .... have you ever worked with him?
I am sure many others like myself are intrigued by your reply. Are you able to enlighten us further?
Its just that - having lined to Paul many times on both the Isthmian League and Football League - he was very much a referee with a personality and worked hard to have a good liaison with most of the players. I would go to far as say that his man management skills were stronger than his technical refereeing skills. In stark contrast to many of his 2021 successors.
491
« on: Thu 18 Feb 2021 16:04 »
According to The Times, it is thought to be the first time the FA has brought a case against a senior referee since 2000 when Paul Taylor was charged with making insulting remarks to Notts County's Sean Farrell. Taylor was cleared by a disciplinary commission three months later. Darren, a 50 year old RAF sergeant, has been on the FL list since 2004.
I think Paul Taylor was one of the last referees who liked to have a bit of banter with the players.
I am taking that with a bit of (sarcastic) salt .... have you ever worked with him?
492
« on: Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:57 »
Oh yes, Harold Hackney. Known for calling a spade a shovel according to Pat Partridge in his book.
In more recent times, referees like Graham Poll and Jeff Winter could use body language in a quite aggressive way, although not to the extent of Darren Drysdale in this particular incident.
Being an old timer when it comes to referee watching, I freely admit that I miss the characters with personality. Some referees used humour to diffuse a situation but my impression is that rarely happens nowadays. Perhaps players would be less likely to respond to humour anyway.
The humour might be lost when players do not have English as their first language - but your point is well made. If OFFINABUS is pretty much not permitted today (at least at the elite level) then responding to verbal barbs on a "like for like" basis cannot really be frowned upon. It has been known for a referee to tell a player who had just given one a mouthful of fruity comments to "sod off" only to be advised that: "You can't talk to me like that". Hypocrisy defined.
493
« on: Fri 12 Feb 2021 14:00 »
Can someone please enlighten me as to where in the rules it says you need to be behind the ball to be onside?
With over 1000 poss, can we assume you have been officiating without understanding offside, even in its written form, nevermind practical?
Absolutely not. I was just curious where in the rules it gives information about this specific incident. Even the very helpful guides at the back don’t show this scenario but people just assume the rule
Its clear in the rules, as has already been pointed out.....closer to the goal line than the ball ......to be closer to the goal line than the ball, you would be in front of it....
If you are not in front of it. ( behind the ball as you posted), then you cannot be offside
This does confuse beginners when you try explain how you can be called offside for a pass which is not played forward, however those occasions are rare
I believe (dangerous word!) that this is the oldest element of the Offside Law in Association Football. Before the introduction of any of the more recent qualifications and complications (two defenders, in one's own half, not interfering, wearing a long t-shirt etc.) it was as simple as being in front of the ball meant being offside. Remembering that the same applies in Rugby Union and that both sports have the same origin. The position of the ball represented a virtual demarcation between the two teams and to be ahead of the ball was to be: " Off of one's side"; which was soon concatenated to " Offside"
494
« on: Fri 12 Feb 2021 09:45 »
Can someone please enlighten me as to where in the rules it says you need to be behind the ball to be onside?
I cannot quite do that, but it does say that to be in an offside position you need to be nearer the opponent's goal-line than the ball.
495
« on: Tue 09 Feb 2021 11:38 »
For an annual meeting we had Mr Elleray come round for a chat. The way he spoke made me think he was looking down on us which was felt quite patronising.
Talking to him briefly afterwards he was extremely arrogant and seemed very selfish.
Don’t know others views but just mine which was a brief encounter
Mr Elleray is a strange man. He was very supportive of bmb jr and did a lot for him, including arranging for him to guest with Kassai and team and for him to attend several seminars not normally open to youngsters. Jr did his first game at age 11yrs and 5 days & it fascinated Mr Elleray that one so young wanted to referee not play. He liked bmb jr, partially I believe, because of his manners and respectful nature. Jr always called him Sir or Mr Elleray & a few months down the line Mr Elleray did comment on his grammar school education as shining through - he'd literally only been at the school a week or 2 at the time!! He is very much the school principal in life in general, imo - good manners go a long way with him. He phoned me absolutely delighted that he had received a handwritten thank you letter from jr and was full of praise for my parenting and how much a delight jr was to deal with. Some I know a bit more cynical than me told me his involvement with jr was just to make him look good in certain circles, I have no idea if it was or wasn't but I can certainly not fault him in any way with how he supported him, took the time to teach him and with how polite, warm and respectful he always was towards me. It would not surprise me if he fell into the autism spectrum, high functioning I mean, maybe Aspergers - to me he has many of the traits. Jr has ADHD & Asperger's which was something else that fascinated Mr Elleray and they had a few talks about how it impacted his life in general as well as with refereeing. I remember he and jr having a long conversation about links - Mr Elleray going to Dover Boys grammar, I went to the girls grammar there for 1 year, us being at the same RA at different times, jr's bond with Hungary because he was born on the anniversary of the revolution, Kassai being his favorite where a link was that he was born in Christchurch which is twinned with Tatabanya, where Kassai was born, Mr Palotai being the first foreign referee I ever watched, Kassai being his - both Hungarians etc. Jr even found a link with Chris Wild at UEFA who was also a big influence - he'd been in the away crowd at an AFCB game that was significant to Jr - might have been Jr's 1st game as a newborn actually! It was quite the conversation and both of them were equally fascinated by it. Me I got through about 4 coffees while they chatted and didn't exist as far as they were concerned! I know lots of people speak more negatively about him though, my own personal experience & more importantly that of my then very young son were only ever positive.
If you read David Elleray's autobiography and his diary of one season in his Premiership career then that reveals a great deal about the man. I also have met him. He is formidably intelligent and utterly focussed on his tasks and aspirations. He is an Oxford geographer and I think very much sees refereeing as a science rather than an art. Dover Grammar school is the key after which Oxford and a highly successful career at Harrow School, one of the leading Public Schools in the country. So there is a bit of manufactured polish about him which can come over as aloofness or arrogance but actually I don't think he is either. I see a parallel to Sir John Major, who from a modest beginning rose to the very top of his career and used a certain way of speaking, very particular choice of words and extremely measured delivery, in his senior roles. Major manages to convey a warmth though which Elleray doesn't quite achieve. Elleray describes how he rarely gets angry because it is such an "inefficient" emotion. That speaks volumes I think. In his autobiography Elleray is quite candid about seeking and applying for a Headmastership at Harrow and other leading Public Schools. He never managed to land one despite his many obvious and great abilities. I suspect the Governors of these school detected just something missing for the complete appointment.
There is no doubt Elleray is a traditionalist who abhors the flash and show-off tendencies employed by some. In private, I have heard, he is an affectionate man. Interestingly his autobiography reveals that two of his good friends in the refereeing world are Steve Lodge and Martin Bodenham, two more down to earth people it would be hard to find. Conversely I don't think Graham Poll would ever have been a great mate.
Nor Clattenburg.... lest we forget!
Lord Elleray showed a complete disdain for him.
Dont know which was worse, Polls insistence that he was middle, flanked by his linesman in public, under threat that if you did not comply, you would be removed from HIS adventures, or anyone weak enough to go along with the narcissism
Close second be Rennies requirement that the linos carried his kit bag.
I have worked with both, and - on those occasions - neither was true. Poll had (has?) an ego and until his well publicised fall from grace he also had the ability to back it up. I have also worked with David Elleray and the posh school-master was never far from the surface. I recall one game where the other lino was the delightful David Crick where I felt very much like the Ronnie Barker character to - respectively Ronnie Corbett and John Cleese characters. There were a lot of long and complicated words used that evening, and none by me!! PS: That game took place on the very evening on which it was announced that David Elleray would officiate that that season's FA Cup Final. And for those of you who like to guess the venue (not the cup final!!) it was where the geology was for certainly for those who were fans of Aurum.
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