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Messages - Leggy

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General Discussion / Re: M OLIVER - Coventry v Luton EFL
« on: Sun 28 May 2023 10:16 »
That law sucks.

Disagree.  It's just about the only part of the handball law/interpretation that is definite and unambiguous. And morally fair too.

Whilst much of the current interpretation of the handball Law is a nonsense, this is not.  As Nemesis says, it is clear and morally right.

What was interesting to see, however, was that there were two instance of a player benefitting from an inadvertent handball and (correctly) being penalised without a word of dissent or theatrics from anyone on either side.  Indeed, in the first instance, the player actually put his hands up - not in celebration, but in admission of the inadvertent "crime".

This shows that the game can be played without the addition of open dissent, crowding the referee, etc. and it was a much better spectacle as well.  Perhaps the fact that the players knew they had one of the very best referees currently operating in world football helped.

General Discussion / Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
« on: Sun 21 May 2023 11:09 »
Liverpool vs Villa has seen some dreadful referee performances in the last few seasons.

Moss @Villa Park Last Season
Attwell @Anfield Last Year
Atkinson and Tierney both had poor performances in 2020 too

Its one of those games like Spurs vs Chelsea and Liverpool vs Spurs.

I just don't see how Konsa didn't deliberately play it, he clearly moves his leg

That is an absolutely brilliant on field call to give Villa a penalty. My whole house watching and the whole of Anfield thought Konate won the ball but he hadn't. Great work!
In my seat at Anfield I and everybody around me knew it was a penalty and our only complaint was Konate’s poor positioning which caused him to make a rash challenge.

When did referees start going to the monitor to check offsides? I must have missed that update.

When it isn't black and white and there has to be a subjective decision made as to whether the player had interfered with play or an opponent.  Has happened a few times.
As I was at the game I’ll see what the television shows me. I’d be interested to see what excuse was concocted for the SFP by Mings.

I hope Mr. Webb is going to instruct his charges to deal with timewasting properly as well. Not quite as bad as Newcastle but atrocious nonetheless. The Villa goalkeeper was wasting time from the start, why wait 76 minutes to apply Law? The blizzard of late yellows for Villa was pointless-do it earlier.

They Yellow Card for Martinez was pointless. He was never going to get a second yellow no longer how much time he took.

He’d still have been criticised for not booking him though.
The late, token caution for time wasting is 100% ineffective - mostly because everyone (including the time-waster) knows that no referee is going to make the headlines by issuing a second yellow card for the same time-wasting, however justified.

There needs to be a different sanction - one that impacts the team wasting time at the time that it happens.

On a similar theme, no referee is going to penalise a goal-keeper for exceeding the permitted six seconds while holding the ball.  Part of the reason for this (which I get) is that organising an indirect free-kick in the defending penalty area is a nightmare and to be avoided at all costs.  But when we see goal-keepers "using" upwards of 25 seconds before releasing the ball into play something really does need to be done as 25 seconds is 0.5% of a full 90 minutes ..... do that four times in a game and you have chopped off 2% out of the game.  Perhaps if fans were given a 2% refund on their admission fees and (more significantly) TV companies given a 2% refund on their fees it might motivate the teams, leagues and governing bodies to do something about it.

(EDIT- I presume this was meant to be your comment, please make sure you use the quote box correctly)

General Discussion / Re: Changes under Howard Webb
« on: Tue 16 May 2023 18:54 »
Very true, and I do appreciate that I am living in a dream world if I believe that all of this can quickly come to pass.  But Howard Webb is very influential within the game and could agitate for these changes as a "Manifesto to Renew Football" with those bodies that do have the power to make the changes.

General Discussion / Re: Changes under Howard Webb
« on: Tue 16 May 2023 18:04 »
I note that - on the BBC Sport site - Howard Webb is quoted as saying that the behaviour of those in the technical area has not been good enough and he is working with "stakeholders" to implement an improvement over the summer so that - next season - there is an improvement.  While he on the case, Howard can implement the following seven-point plan to make football a better experience for those who play, coach, watch and officiate:

1. Handball
In an attempt to reach the promised land of 100% clarity has only resulted in less clarity.  You now have cases where the same incident is treated differently depending on whether it is a defender or an attacker who (allegedly) commits an offence and where that offence occurs.  We need to move away from "body shape"; the "silhouette” nonsense and decide whether the player (i) meant to handle or (ii) benefited from accidentally handling the ball - and penalise accordingly.

2. Offside

The geometry part is OK (as long as the VAR does their line drawing diligently); but the offside offence part has also been made less clear in an attempt to reach that elusive promised land of 100% clarity.  The decision on whether or not an offence has occurred should revert to the previous wording and interpretation (interfering with play, players or seeking to gain an advantage).  Both handball and offside will have elements of subjectivity but attempts to remove this have failed and we should just trust the referee’s (or assistant referee’s) subjective judgement.

3.  Faking it

Players at the top level are clearly shameless as they routinely and frequently exaggerate (or completely fake) serious injury purely for the purpose of getting an opponent into trouble.  It is clear from the subsequent play that they all have the Lazarus gene in terms of their recovery.  This is really unappealing and can quickly be eliminated by the strict implementation of post-match sanctions.  One match ban for the first offence, increased each time for a subsequent offence.  It will keep someone busy on a Monday morning, but only for a few weeks.

4. Gamesmanship at penalty kicks.

This is now endemic.  Players question the initial award, they then question the VAR review, the goal-keeper messes with the penalty mark and the penalty-taker’s head.  Add to this the time that the referee spends telling everyone what they can / cannot do (its in the Laws folks!) and three / four minutes can easily elapse between the award and the penalty actually being taken …… and then there is the goal celebration.  Penalty kicks should become “stand alone” events (a la hockey or as in a penalty shoot-out) – there would be no encroachment, no gamesmanship and 99% less aggravation.  The outcome would be either a goal or a goal-kick.

5. Time wasting

The ideal answer to this is two 30-minute “ball in play” halves, and a trial of that is long overdue.  If that is too radical, then a few simple actions will help:
•   Either abolish the “six-second” rule or enforce it (preferably enforce it).
•   Allow a throw-in to be reversed if it is not taken promptly.
•   Change a goal-kick into a corner if it is not taken promptly.
•   Do not stop play is a player has a slightly poorly leg, sore arm or untied boot lace – no-one died because of that.  Their recovery will be speeded up by the game continuing around them.
•   Substituted players must leave by the shortest route, with the sanction for failing to act as directed by the referee being a one-minute delay in the substitute being allowed to enter the field of play.

6. Dissent and OFFINABUS

This is currently simply not enforced, so anything and everything has become acceptable.  Players can currently scream and shout at match officials, crowd around and harrangue them with pretty much 100% impunity.  This looks awful and has a real impact on player behaviour throughout the game.  It makes grass-roots referees less safe and at greater risk of verbal and physical assault and it has to change.  Showing the imaginary card also appears to be OK now because it is really (if ever) sanctioned.

7.  Technical Areas

Almost every manager / coach seems incapable of remaining within their Technical Area.  One remedy would be a mild electrical charge to “encourage” club officials to remain within bounds, but I suspect there may be objections to this.  More seriously, the players have GPS monitors to track their movement – club officials should also wear them, and a fine be imposed for each transgression.  They also need to behave much better – player take their lead from those in the Technical Area and the threshold for expulsion for poor behaviour should be much lower.

If football is serious about changing its image, then all of the above can be implemented at the start of next season.  It will need to backed-up with a steely determination to follow through and not wilt at the first cries of “its too severe and ruining the game” and the benefits will follow for everyone.  Just look at how Rugby Union is applying its new protocols for preventing in-game head injuries and follow suit.

General Discussion / Re: M SALISBURY - Palace v Bournemouth
« on: Mon 15 May 2023 12:31 »
Very surprised it wasn't went for a review, the evidence was there as it was a clenched first rather than an accidental swinging arm.  Suspect it might well get discussed when Webb is on MNF tomorrow.

It was, Dermot tried hard to explain why the player was not sent off but I do not think his heart was really in it.  He was in a minority of one on the programme.

PS:  On the basis of his views today, Paul Robinson would have made for a very strict referee - lots of penalties and red cards in his games!

This was a classic example of trying to "manage the game" and avoid early cards backfiring big time.

AM should have just refereed what was in front of him.  A yellow card for the first poor challenge was reasonable (although a red could have been justified).  Had that happened, there is a good chance that the retribution foul shortly after (which was also in the "orange" category) would not have happened.

After that he was always playing catch up and, sad to say, never really had the feel of the game.  A strong first ten / fifteen minutes might have enabled a decent game of football to break out - but that is not what the "product owners" want to see.

Cup Appointments / Re: Emirates FA Cup - 2022/2023
« on: Sun 14 May 2023 11:02 »
So the semi-finals took place three weeks ago and the officials for the final are still to be announced.  In previous years, they were often "out" a couple of days after the semi-finals had taken place.

There are many RTR correspondents who are more "in the know" than me  - does anyone know what is (not) going on?

Cup Appointments / Re: Muratti Vase(s) 13.05.2023
« on: Sun 14 May 2023 10:55 »
Excellent news!  I hope the 22 minutes added time did not cause the Jersey fans to miss the ferry home!

Cup Appointments / Re: Muratti Vase(s) 13.05.2023
« on: Sat 13 May 2023 18:59 »
L1, FL ref

Ta - shows how "off the pace" I am with currently Level 1 referees!

General Discussion / Re: SG1 Talk
« on: Sat 13 May 2023 10:42 »
The lack of Southern referees really does matter. How can our capital city not have had a SG1/ prem league referee for years. When was the last one? Alf  Buksh, Phil Don and Tony Ward? Norfolk I don’t think has had a football league referee since Jim Borrett. How can it be justified that we repeatedly transport refs all over the country for fourth official duties, which is shameful ecologically. Statistically the level of inequity is bewildering. Role models matter and the North/South split can not be justified. There must be bias in the system whether intentional or not and this is wrong.

Think that is just the nature of London.  There are lots of senior officials that refereed in London, but moved elsewhere before they made it to the top levels.  Lots of people move to London when they are young but then move away when they get a bit older and are looking to settle down and start a family, either because they don't want their kids being brought up in London schools or they just can't afford to buy a house there.

It is also inherently harder to be a senior referee in London as most people work in the city or West End and therefore can't drive to work.  Elsewhere in the country referees will drive straight to games from work, that isn't an option for most London based referees, and I know from my own experience it was a real problem.  I'd have to leave work very early to go home to get the car to then go to the game.

The standard of football that officials have to referee is also a factor. 

As does having a job with a County FA or the FA.

Cup Appointments / Re: Muratti Vase(s) 13.05.2023
« on: Sat 13 May 2023 10:36 »
Both at Footes Lane, Guernsey, on the same day for the first time

Women 10.30 - Abby Georgia Dearden (Blackburn), Luke Nerac (Jersey), Geoff Ogier (Guernsey), Luke Pattimore (Guernsey)

Men 15.00 - Darren Lee Handley (Bolton), Richard Dyer (Jersey), James Lihou (Guernsey), Derek Gilman (Guernsey)

Thanks John, what Level is Darren Handley?

I Spy Old Refs! / Re: Barry Breuilly (Jersey referee)
« on: Fri 12 May 2023 17:12 »
The very definition of a "character" who made refereeing in Jersey more entertaining and fun.  His only gripe was not always being able to plug in his hair-dryer in some of the Island's more "basic" referee changing facilities.

General Discussion / Re: C KAVANAGH - Newcastle v Arsenal
« on: Sun 07 May 2023 20:05 »
All of the wording about it deflecting off their own body or a nearby opponent was taken out of law this season.  The only consideration now is was the arm in a position as a consequence of or justifiable by the player's body movement for that specific situation.  A deflection is no longer a consideration.

My view is he was trying his best to get his arm out of the way and it was therefore in a justifiable position.

The irony of this one is that when the ball made contact with his hand he was moving has hand from a perfectly natural position (by his side) into an unnatural position (behind his back) to avoid conceding a penalty because of the (daft) way the Law is worded and applied nowadays.

General Discussion / Re: L Doughty - Sheff Wed v Derby
« on: Sun 07 May 2023 19:59 »
Soft, but he gave the referee a decision to make.  If VAR had been there it would not have intervened.

General Discussion / Re: Bobby Madden
« on: Thu 04 May 2023 16:59 »
I was amazed by what Madden revealed. England has always insisted on having some version of this ludicrous system. I can’t believe, in the cold light of day, even clubs themselves think it’s an effective way to rate referees. Clubs deserve a view but obviously will always have a vested interest - as posters have said, a system which encourages cosying up to clubs to improve ratings is never going to be healthy. At lower/semi-pro levels, it’s even more of an issue, and it affects referees coming through the system. I remember many times being an AR at semi-pro games, keen to get home (but where officials travel together), waiting forever for the referee desperately trying to win over the Club Secretary in the bar after the game! I equally remember lots of superb referees who never quite got through the levels thanks to the very random whims of club secretaries, as well as certain referees conveniently avoiding certain clubs at key times … Not signs of an effective, professional system!

100% agree.  "Working the club secretary" was a necessary art / skill in the 80s and 90s in English semi-pro football.  The appointments secretary of a south-east based league had an excellent working knowledge of the whims of these worthy individuals.  He admitted that he could - if he wanted to - make any referee rise to the top of the merit list by sending him to a select number of well marking clubs.  He could also achieve the opposite outcome.  I should add that he had far too much integrity to actually do this, but it did make a mockery of the "club marks" way of assessing referees.

If some version of this approach is in operation in the EFL then it is working against the best interests of the game.  But then it sits well alongside the fact that the owner-shareholders of the PGMOL are (directly and indirectly) the clubs themselves.  Perhaps the lunatics really have taken over the asylum.

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