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Messages - kelxref

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General Discussion / Re: FIFA List Appointments 2022
« on: Sun 26 Dec 2021 12:20 »
On the point about our FIFA quota of referees now being full and given the ages of the current panel there is unlikely to be a vacancy for a number of years so blocking younger prospects like Robert Jones and others. I wanted to ask is there any contractual reason why once nominated the FA canít change the nominations each year even if no one choses to resign or retire? Rather like a player being given a trial at international level, what would be wrong with giving a referee say 4-5 years to move from starting category 2 to category 1 at the UEFa level, and if they donít make that jump, give a chance to another candidate?

Alan Robinson?

General Discussion / Re: Promotion 2020
« on: Thu 20 Aug 2020 16:48 »
I thought I read somewhere (although I have not been able to recall the source at the moment) that SG1 and SG2 received very similar retainer salaries. What makes SG1 referees earn much more was that the fees per game were almost twice as much in the Premier League compared to the Championship.

If that is the case - anyone know for certain? - then there would not be any financial reason for not being able to combine the lists (as you would just have more flexibility in allocating the same match fees). Of course there could still may be a contractual or HR obstacles.

Those at the very top would still earn much more. Someone like edy would know this, but I think our FIFA elite refs earn something in the region of Ä5,000 per match in the UEFA competitions.

I Spy Old Refs! / Re: Norman Burtenshaw
« on: Thu 25 Jun 2020 05:16 »
Indeed McKay looks extremely unhappy, but it was a very warm afternoon as I recall as I was at that match, which could help partly explain tempers flaring. On the socks, I remember Burtenshaw usually wearing socks with very long white turnovers and only swopped to the other extreme in the latter part of his career. As I started refereeing a few years after this picture was taken, I always thought the long turnover looked a bit ridiculous but in this case you could argue it helped differentiate between the Spursí socks of dark blue and white. Apart from physical characteristics Timbo (thinking back to your previous post), turnover length was often a way to recognise referees - Roy Capey started wearing socks where black would reappear at the top of the sock, as did Gordon Hill after the FA/FL stopped him wearing all black.

Oh dear re-reading this makes me sound eccentric to put it politely, but your post and the picture just prompted some distant memories so apologies!

I Spy Old Refs! / Re: Soccer Review 1-22, season 1965-66
« on: Tue 23 Jun 2020 10:10 »
Danny Lyden?

I Spy Old Refs! / Re: April Fool's Day
« on: Tue 07 Apr 2020 15:45 »
Recall from the 80s Allan Gunn being teamed ups with Messrs Pellat and Pierce and Danny Vickers with Messrs Abbot and Nunn.

Isnít there some specific Italian rule that a ref can only be on the Serie A list for 10 years at most? Perhaps thatís why Rocchiís leaving the international list.

Interesting to muse on how UEFA view "perceived" errors given that that has been talk on here about how Michael Oliver's appointments may have been affected after the Real-Juventus game. I watched the Schaktar - Atalanta game last night, and witnessed Felix Zwayer inexcusably fail to issue a second yellow card to the Atalanta player Muriel. It was a potentially game changing moment with the score at 0-0. Given that Zwayer is seemingly one of Rossetti's favoured Elite refs, I await with interest the appointment s for the knockout stage of  the CL.

Following Hendo's point about Robinson being one of the SG2 VARs, it would be a pity if not being part of that group means that promotion to SG1 is unlikely in the near term given all the favourable comments made on this site about Robert Jones as an example. If that were to be the case, then it would set up another hurdle for younger officials to be promoted quickly. Are SG2 or NL refs given any training with VAR at present? Certainly FOs are drawn from the non VAR group and as Langford's refereeing at Chelsea showed, not being involved with VAR did not prevent him from handling the game relatively successfully. Maybe my concerns here are groundless.

General Discussion / Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 13:51 »
This is a real dog's dinner.  We have Hackett saying VAR should have given the penalty but he makes no mention, and probably wasn't aware at the time, of the ball touching Siva's arm first.  Clattenburg says no penalty was correct but that the wrong reason has been given - Silva's handball should have been the reason, otherwise it should have been a penalty as TAA's arm wasn't in a natural position; and Halsey thought Oliver's view may have been restricted by Aguero but VAR should have advised a penalty. Halsey's comments raised a question in my mind:  we don't know what Michael Oliver saw or thought he saw and whether he had a good view (I still think it wasn't the best angle).  But suppose he thought it might be a penalty but wasn't sure enough and therefore wanted VAR to look at it.  Could he have blown straightaway for the VAR check to avoid the risk of a breakaway and goal at the other end, which of course is what happened?  (If VAR had then stated no penalty, how would the game restart?)  Or, not having made a decision, is he obliged to let play continue?
Hackett's version is wrong according to the latest version of the law on handball. Clattenburg's observation is correct but his conclusion is flawed for the reason given by Readingfan - if you allow play to continue after a "deliberate" handball then a player can catch the ball run to the edge of the penalty area and boot the ball upfield.  Halsey is wrong insofar as  a penalty should not have been awarded (for the same reason as Hackett) but is correct that VAR should have intervened.  Play should have been allowed to continue but called back for a Liverpool free kick after the VAR check was completed.  To allow the goal to stand means that advantage was given to the perpetrator of the handball, a new concept.

Whilst I agree with your point about that handball should be defined in terms of gaining an advantage (and defined the same for defenders and attackers), in this case under the current laws, I think Mark Clattenburg's view has merit. Whether Silva's handling of the ball is deliberate or not, it does deflect the ball towards TAA (arguably) within close proximity and this is an exception to the unnatural position criterion for a deliberate handball?  If that is the case, then even if Silva's handling is deliberate then TAA has not committed a handling offence and so playing an advantage is ok.

This is of course a bit of moot argument as the PGMOL have said that Silva's handball played no part in the decision. For the second week running their comments pose more questions than they answer. If they are going to say anything then I think they should say exactly why it was not a penalty and relate that directly to the current wording of the laws. Henry Winter in the Times this morning thought that the PGMOL quote "it did not meet the considerations for a deliberate handball" confusing and insulting, and that managers and supporters deserve better.

Sorry meant Kuipers game not Makkelieís.


Is it usual for the AVAR to be an AR, as thought it was normally a ref, but Lee Betts is with Michael Oliver this week.

I was thinking that.

Perhaps it indicates the lack of English FIFA referees. If Attwell/Tierney are out on Wednesday or Thursday - eitehr as VARs in Champions League or refereeing in Europa League - then it might be they're struggling for numbers with Pawson away currently.

Perhaps itís a change in policy for countries that are using VAR in their domestic leagues. In some of the other appointments on Tuesday (eg Makkelie and Rocchi), FIFA ARs are being used assistant VARs as well.

After the earlier discussion good to see Craig Pawson back with a main VAR appointment! I see he is working with Drew Fisher for the third time who I think is a very experienced VAR official.

On JCFCís point, I agree that Craig was not going to get an onfield appointment but rather that where he was appointed the main VAR for his first match, the following 3 were as assistant VAR. This certainly seems to be, as Vlad put it, a sort of punishment by FIFA for something they think he did wrongly.

I see from another site that the Chinese referee involved in the VAR penalty incident with Craig Pawson, has been given another game tomorrow. Craig Pawson has been appointed three times since the Angola/New Zealand game, but they have all been as an assistant VAR.

Does that mean FIFA has backed the referee in the original no penalty decision? If so thatís ridiculous.

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