RateTheRef

I thought overall Taylor did well - in a game of this magnitude, you just don't want the referee to be blamed for a decision that changes a game, and he did well not to fall for some of the theatrics in the penalty area.

I do think we were lucky not to get a couple of players cautioned - Jesus early on a clear example, although you could equally make the case a City player slid in late on to deliberately stop a counter and wasn't booked too. Taylor clearly set out to not flash the cards, which he got away with because he is Anthony Taylor whose reputation and experience allows him to do that. I think bar Oliver, any other SG referee who tried this approach would have really struggled.

Very dull game, and a bit of an anti-climax, but I'll take the point! 

I agree with much of what you say, he was certainly consistent in not awarding yellow cards to both sides although (perhaps naturally) I thought there was only one candidate challenge for a yellow card by City against five for Arsenal. (The two yellow cards given were of players saying "please book me" in my view).  A foul count of 16 against Arsenal against 4 against City at the 70th minute is quite telling (evened up a bit later as City perhaps wearied of being kicked).  I will never understand the semi-amnesty against cards in the early stages of a game and Jesus on Bernardo was, to me a clear yellow card at any time in any game at any level. 

Surely the best management is to set the expectations early in the game and stick to them.

There was particular period of five minutes between the 50th and 55th minute where there were 4 fouls awarded against Arsenal.  Mostly there were of  the "professional foul" type intending to break up attacking moves.  But that only tells part of the story, between 51.45 and 51.50 there were three "never mind the ball, lets get on with the game" challenges for the first two "advantage" was played despite the ball being effectively a "hospital" pass to a City player who was clobbered as soon as the ball arrived.  Even after the third challenge no card appeared.  If the referee looks back on that few minutes he might well come out in a cold sweat thinking what could have happened if one of those challenges had resulted in serious injury or if City had retaliated in style when he would have almost certainly have lost control of the game.  City players deserve credit for not responding in type.

As I understand it the notion that a referee not issuing cards is to let the game flow.  In this case it has had the exact opposite effect allowing Arsenal to break up play with impunity and contributing to a "Very dull game"

I remember some years ago seeing an icon of John Knox. Whether this is an abomination of desolation or a wonderful expression of ecumenism is perhaps a debatable point.  I am in the latter camp. The icon writer is a committed Methodist.

I too am firmly in the latter camp.

John Knox in his two "books of discipline" established KIrk Sessions as being responsible for establishing schools within their parishes and arguably giving Scotland a lead in making education available to all.  Not an entirely altruistic action but none the less giving Scotland one of the best educated populations of its time; sadly like Milton's Paradise, something now lost.  Around 150 years ago the Church of Scotland gave, or was maybe forced to give, its schools' estate over to the state.  It got little in return except the right to appoint a non-elected member to the local authority Education Committee.  A few years later the Catholic Church also transferred its schools to the state but were canny enough to get a rather better deal with continuing considerable influence over their Catholic schools. as well as a representative on the Education Committee.  Ex-Church of Scotland schools are classified as non-denominational and access to them by the Kirk is at the discretion of the Head Teacher / Local Authority Head of Education.  I have the privilege of being the CoS representative on a local authority Education Committee.

On the ecumenical front Scotland is a bit behind England so far as I can see.  In 1985 they did manage to weaken the commitment to the Westminster Confession so we no longer had to believe that the Pope was the anti-Christ and a couple of years ago managed to sign the St Margaret declaration which states that we are "friends" with the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland!  I am friendly with Canon Pat Keegans the retired priest of St Margaret's RC Cathedral in Ayr.  He was the Priest in Lockerbie when the plane crash happened and it took its toll on him.  Anyhow we exchange Christmas cards and I notice that he has elevated me to the priesthood by addressing me as Rev on the envelope!  I wrote to him about the Houldsworth Window which attracted interest and some humour amongst him and his colleagues.  The Church of Scotland's response generally, lacks either,  Given the state of the mainline Churches in the UK it seems to me that it it is time the Churches put a much more co-ordinated and combined effort into outreach.  The more I looked into that window and the matters being debated in Church and society at the time of its installation the more I came to see it as  being prescient.  It foresees the increasing importance of women in Church and Society, the need for churches to set aside their differences and concentrate on promoting God in words and works.

Quote from: MCPridz on Sun 10 Mar 2024 17:55

Mike Dean originally said penalty at first in commentary then they got another angle and it looked like Doku got the ball before the main and he said no penalty on the 2nd replay

Didn’t see Dean’s comments, but can’t believe he’s said that. How many years have we been explaining that a slight glance on the ball doesn’t trump what happens afterwards? Key here is it’s not a normal height to play ball with foot; LIV player gets there first, chesting (normal play for ball at that height/angle) and MCI player catches him high with boots/studs - not quite Webb/DeJong WC2010, but similar scenario. Although MoTD saying Oliver is only few yards away, he crucially is looking through LIV forward and can’t see contact; exactly what VAR is for. Atwell made bad call here, imo.

This for me is a 50:50 decision yes the foot is high but it has also reached its zenith and so there is little force and indeed the momentum of Mac Allister spins Doku around.
However, I would disagree with the way some of your observations are stated.

Although MoTD saying Oliver is only few yards away, he crucially is looking through LIV forward and can’t see contact;

It seems to me that Oliver has the best view in the house he sees the contact side on; his view is only obscured after the contact when Mac Allister's momentum spins Doku round.

How many years have we been explaining that a slight glance on the ball doesn’t trump what happens afterwards?

This seems hardly to be "a slight glance" as the ball is hit high in the air by Doku.

LIV player gets there first, chesting

Not as I see it looking frame by frame, Doku plays the ball first.

MCI player catches him high with boots/studs - not quite Webb/DeJong WC2010, but similar scenario.

Well obviously not boots plural and seems to be with the side of the foot rather than the studs.  Comparison with the DeJong challenge seems to be stretching it rather a long way beyond "not quite".  The only similarity is that the foot is high.

From a City viewpoint thought Mr Madley had a reasonable game, though wouldn't argue with the above points about positioning and time-keeping. The latter mitigated by the YC for Chelsea keeper Petrovic for time-wasting around the hour mark, which did bring an end to the long-winded goal-kicks. I would like to see more SG1 officials to clamp down on this earlier. 

Mr Madley let a few things go, which didn't come back to bite him. It felt inconsistent in letting Caceido already on a YC off without booking for taking a man down on the edge of the visitors penalty area, yet booking Silva for his first foul, for what looked like nothing more than a coming together in the middle of the park.

Haven't seen the VAR incidents again so can't evaluate. Don't know if something's been lost in translation, but Rodri's remarks on VAR seemed very strange; having a number of referrals doesn't guarantee any initial decision will be wrong.

The juxtaposition of the Silva yellow and the non-yellow for the foul on Rodri as he was carrying the ball into the area did not suggest a charitable explanation to myself.

Rodri's comments on VAR as I have read are a bit strange.  Comments by those in the know here and elsewhere have led me to believe that there is no correspondence between VAR and the on-field officials until any check is complete.  This in itself seems strange as how are VAR supposed to know just what the referee has or hasn't seen?  So perhaps I have misunderstood.  However, apart from when goals are scored or penalties awarded we, mere watchers on, don't know when a VAR review takes place (although we do know the circumstances where it cannot take place.) However, and perhaps this is underlying Rodri's comments, it does, purely intuitively, seem to me that in recent weeks the threshold for "clear and obvious" has been raised even higher leading to even fewer referrals for referees to review their decision.

All that considered it did seem to me that City's failure to win was more down to individual errors at both end and tactics that like JCFC in his recent report left me feeling "the deployment of the available resources produced a bewildered frown".  We have Foden, in the form of his life playing between the lines in mid-field, moved out to the right wing whilst then directing most of our attacking moves down the left wing; strange.

Aaaargh!  Should have consulted the Oracle [AKA my (B)onnie (L)ass (F)rae (G)irvan, a title bestowed IIRC by JCFC]  IRG - not one of mine?

Anyhow here's an easier ground for JCFC.


It was given to me by my big sister for my 75th birthday and sort of reminds me of Bunty, not the American Aunt but our budgerigar named in her honour.  She, the bird not the Aunt, was a very interactive pet, liking particularly to sit on your hand when you were reading a newspaper and nibble away at the edges of the page, if no newspaper she would nibble your ear instead.  She also enjoyed riding on my electric train and we had a game to get her back in her cage where every time she was approached she would fly to a new perching spot.

Now my mother was a member of the Co-op (or should that be CWS?) - 32868 was her "divi" number. (If I ever succumb to Alzheimer's that will probably be the last number to go as I had to remember it every time I was sent to the Emporium to collect what would be called here in Ayrshire "the messages").  Well between City losing to Newcastle in the cup final and beating Birmingham the following year the Co-op had a prize draw and Mum's divi number won a TV.  It was a 9" B&W Alba in a polished wood box and with a domed top.

Following City's victory over Birmingham my sister obtained a team photograph which had pride of place on top of the tv.  One day the bird and I were alone in the house when we started the game of getting her back into her cage.  Alas she landed on the corner of the picture which slid along the top of the tv and onto the floor where the glass smashed.  My explanation of "The budgie did it" was, strangely, not believed, not helped by the bird sitting looking sweetly innocent in its cage.  Thus started in me a distrust of any human judicial process which has, sadly, been regularly reinforced by experience - the treatment of postmasters being a recent example.

Quote from: Microscopist on Tue 06 Feb 2024 10:23

Quote from: Boz on Tue 06 Feb 2024 00:08

Quote from: TheThingFromLewes on Mon 05 Feb 2024 22:16

Quote from: UmpireIan49 on Mon 05 Feb 2024 22:06

Not seen the game so relying on some of my friends watching it, and they reliably inform me that Brentford’s Neal Maupay and Manchester City’s Kyle Walker have been involved in an angry war of words on the pitch, something to do with Walker’s private life which has been in the news recently.

Maupay was subbed before any nonsense could occur post match and I don’t think we’ll hear the last of it. Jarred Gillett would have been on the case anyway I would hazard a guess.

In relation to Gillett, only six fouls and one yellow card awarded all evening, which must be some sort of record for the lowest number of fouls given in a game. Nice to see the Australian referee getting a good run of games and he’ll likely be involved in the next round of fixtures.

The only quibble was when Ederson came charging out of his box and took out a Brentford player. In the box, VAR comes in and gives a penalty. 

Gillett gave nothing which was really bizarre.

Aside from that, it was a walk in the park for him, plus to mention Mr Cann again getting everything spot on.

Haven't watched the game yet, but from the photographs of the Ederson incident any contact was outside the penalty area as you say. The commentary I heard suggested Ederson knocked his own player Ake, who went into Pinnock as a result.

Yes, outside the area caught Ake first but carried on into Pinnock.  Given the elastic classification of fouls and cards could have been any decision you like to choose.  In fairness to Gillett it was consistent with other decisions, and had he given this I would have expected him also to have chalked off Brentford's goal for the blatant blocking of Ake by Toney - though neither incident  influenced the subsequent play.  The Ederson incident could equally have been a free kick against Ake for having his hands on Pinnock's shoulders as he headed the ball clear so in the context of Gillett's overall decision making I think there was pretty good consistency.

 Not sure the Ederson/Toney incidents are the same,Toney simply stood his ground,Rderson clattered Pinnock.
I will be kind to Gillett and say he didn’t see the collision rather than didn’t think it was worth a free kick

Guardiola said after the match that Brentford are the best team in the Premiership for set plays from free kicks and I think this is what he was thinking of; something from American football perhaps?  Toney is not simply standing his ground, his job is to stop any defender intercepting the ball and he backs into Ake moving him a couple of yards away from the path of the ball to do that.  It is clever and certainly fooled Gvardiol who will no doubt have been told so by Guardiola - he should have tracked the run of Maupay.  City players perhaps forgetting that it was a goalkick so no offside.  Clever play but the challenge on Ake should be a foul.

With regard to Ake's hands on Pinnock's shoulder yes should be a foul, but these are rarely given and Tottenham's final equaliser in the 3-3 draw with City would certainly have been ruled out had this law been applied rigorously - whole elbow into Ake's neck (and was probably rather more dangerous than Ederson's headstrong rush).  But referees, it seems to me, set the thresholds for fouls and provided that they apply them consistently throughout a game, as appeared to be the case with Gillett, then that's fine with me.

Edited to fix the quote thingamajigga, bmb

I hope that your Burns Dinner went well and that you enjoyed the evening.

I am intrigued by your mention of Aunty Bunty. Was that her actual name, or merely a nickname or an accepted version of a "proper" name?

Thank you and I hope all is well with you.  I did enjoy my evening - I may elaborate later.

I never heard Aunt Bunty called anything else (well maybe some impolite things) but I note that in "Father Brown",  Bunty is used as a pet name for Penelope.  I will ask my big sister whether she knows otherwise next time we speak

Elephant and Castle station is not the nicest locale, I routinely try and avoid said area if I’m out and about.

As it has gone a bit quiet.....my grandmother used to live in Falmouth Chambers (now demolished) near the Elephant and Castle.  By reputation she was quite fiesty though when I knew her she was suffering quite badly from Parkinson's Disease.  My two aunts attended St Saviour's and St Olave's CofE Girl's School; at least according to family legend until one of them was expelled for pushing a teacher into a swimming pool.  When Aunty Flo told the tale it was Aunty Bunty who was responsible. Aunty Bunty married a GI and went to live in Nashville. She endeared herself to me by enclosing a $5 note in my birthday card each year and later by driving down to New Orleans from Nashville to meet me when I was speaking at a conference there.  She and her husband treated me to a rather fine meal at a rotating restaurant at the top of a skyscraper.  Aunty Flo meanwhile wanted a photograph of Antoine's Restaurant as she had been reading "Dinner at Antoine's". 

Anyhow I gave a tribute at Aunty Flo's funeral and mentioned the swimming pool incident.  My sister forwarded a transcript of my tribute to our American cousins and received the reply that when Aunty Bunty told the story it was Aunty Flo who was the culprit.  Given the characters of the two sisters I would guess Aunty Bunty as the most likely miscreant, Aunty Flo's response to feeling in some sense aggrieved by her teacher would have been, I think, rather more calculated.