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General Refereeing => General Discussion => Topic started by: ex-ref on Sat 21 Jan 2023 23:28

Title: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: ex-ref on Sat 21 Jan 2023 23:28
This match was played in thick fog which worsened in the second half.

Reports suggest that both managers were happy to abandon the game and play again at a later but, when discussing this with Mr Madden, it is said that he told the managers that as 75 minutes were played the result would stand 1-1 as it was at the time.

I can't see this rule/law anywhere, could someone with greater knowledge confirm or deny please?

Oxford Utd won 2-1
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: charlieboy on Sun 22 Jan 2023 00:59
Efl rule 34.2 .
Doesn’t stipulate 75 minutes though , just states that the result of an abandoned match can at the efl discretion be allowed to stand .
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: keith h on Sun 22 Jan 2023 08:35
Might that have been the rule of the Scottish Fa and he thought it was the same here?
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: Steelman on Sun 22 Jan 2023 10:22
Never heard of the 75 minute rule up here or anywhere for that matter. I suppose Bobby must have got it from somewhere buy only he can enlighten us where, assuming the report is correct. 
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: Leggy on Sun 22 Jan 2023 11:07
Or it could be that the reports are not 100% accurate?  It has been known for managers to occasionally be economical with the actualite when it suits them.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: rustyref on Sun 22 Jan 2023 13:09
It used to be 70 minutes in SCoR for grass roots level, that got taken out a few years ago though.  Don't think there has ever been a time defined at senior levels.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: nemesis on Mon 23 Jan 2023 21:32
Or it could be that the reports are not 100% accurate?  It has been known for managers to occasionally be economical with the actualite when it suits them.

Why would both managers, winning and losing, make up the story?  It seems clear that Bobby Madden simply got it wrong. He also got it wrong by continuing with the game when most of the paying customers could see little of what was going on.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: Readingfan on Tue 24 Jan 2023 08:57
This sounds like something that might need to be looked into further. If incorrect information played a part in the managers wishing to carry on then that would be of concern, and indeed it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that a referee should really take into account in any case - either it's appropriate to continue playing the match or it's not.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: RCG on Tue 24 Jan 2023 17:32
Just do your job and let others worry about what happens next.
If its too foggy, come off
As Nemesis says they should take into account the paying public too
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: nemesis on Wed 01 Feb 2023 16:02
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: Seagull on Wed 01 Feb 2023 16:54
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.

For my fellow Blackadder fans "Deny everything, Baldrick." "Did you Referee Oxford United v. Ipswich?" "No!!!"
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: rustyref on Wed 01 Feb 2023 17:33
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times that managers after games have claimed that I said something that I simply didn't.  They either made it up completely, or took something that I had said completely out of context.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: nemesis on Wed 01 Feb 2023 18:17
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times that managers after games have claimed that I said something that I simply didn't.  They either made it up completely, or took something that I had said completely out of context.

Really. The managers, a happy winner and a disappointed loser, both made up the same detailed story in separate interviews about something you didn't mention at all?

Good try, but it looks like a cover up to me.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: rustyref on Wed 01 Feb 2023 18:24
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times that managers after games have claimed that I said something that I simply didn't.  They either made it up completely, or took something that I had said completely out of context.

Really. The managers, a happy winner and a disappointed loser, both made up the same detailed story in separate interviews about something you didn't mention at all?

Good try, but it looks like a cover up to me.

Managers collude to discredit the referee.  Trust me, it happens.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: nemesis on Wed 01 Feb 2023 18:40
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times that managers after games have claimed that I said something that I simply didn't.  They either made it up completely, or took something that I had said completely out of context.

Really. The managers, a happy winner and a disappointed loser, both made up the same detailed story in separate interviews about something you didn't mention at all?

Good try, but it looks like a cover up to me.

Managers collude to discredit the referee.  Trust me, it happens.

Maybe they do, but not in a situation like this. One manager has every reason to be grateful for this referee's slip up. Your suggestions, I'm afraid lack credibility.

Referees say things which aren't true. Trust me, it happens.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: charlieboy on Wed 01 Feb 2023 19:09
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times that managers after games have claimed that I said something that I simply didn't.  They either made it up completely, or took something that I had said completely out of context.

Really. The managers, a happy winner and a disappointed loser, both made up the same detailed story in separate interviews about something you didn't mention at all?

Good try, but it looks like a cover up to me.

Managers collude to discredit the referee.  Trust me, it happens.
I agree , here we have one manager who was upset at losing a game he expected to win and a home manager who has lots of history with referees , a quick internet search shows he has had touchline bans in each of the past 3 years and I haven’t looked further , so in the circumstances I think it right to back the referee unless there was evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: Whistleblower on Wed 01 Feb 2023 20:07
Unless one was present and heard the exchange between the referee and the managers then any conclusion we might draw is speculation. That speculation may be informed by circumstantial evidence or it may be informed by our existing predispositions whether to believe or not believe referees and managers. Unless it was proved that there had been no collusion between the managers and their accounts of what the referee said were entirely independent, I personally wouldn't give too much credence to the fact they they both took the same line. If I was pressed to judgement then, Mr Madden being a Scottish gentleman, I think I would resort to the peculiarly Scottish verdict of Not Proven.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: nemesis on Wed 01 Feb 2023 21:40
Unless one was present and heard the exchange between the referee and the managers then any conclusion we might draw is speculation. That speculation may be informed by circumstantial evidence or it may be informed by our existing predispositions whether to believe or not believe referees and managers. Unless it was proved that there had been no collusion between the managers and their accounts of what the referee said were entirely independent, I personally wouldn't give too much credence to the fact they they both took the same line. If I was pressed to judgement then, Mr Madden being a Scottish gentleman, I think I would resort to the peculiarly Scottish verdict of Not Proven.

Yes, I'd take that verdict, whilst it's still around. It does mean guilty as hell but we can't prove it, doesn't it?  ;)

Regardless of the wishes of the managers, Madden was clearly remiss in allowing the game to continue practically invisible to the paying customers and the thousands who paid iFollow for the privilege. He should at the very least be taken to task at that.

Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: nemesis on Wed 01 Feb 2023 21:46
Apparently the referees’ body, the PGMOL, has now investigated the matter and found that Madden did nothing wrong and that neither he nor any member of his team of officials made the 75-minute claim to the managers.

So either both managers are lying or the referee is lying. Well I know who I believe, although a heavy Scottish accent can be difficult at times.

The referees investigating themselves reminds me of what's happening in Government these days, as has the outcome.

I suppose if they had admitted it, they'd have a problem.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times that managers after games have claimed that I said something that I simply didn't.  They either made it up completely, or took something that I had said completely out of context.

Really. The managers, a happy winner and a disappointed loser, both made up the same detailed story in separate interviews about something you didn't mention at all?

Good try, but it looks like a cover up to me.

Managers collude to discredit the referee.  Trust me, it happens.
I agree , here we have one manager who was upset at losing a game he expected to win and a home manager who has lots of history with referees , a quick internet search shows he has had touchline bans in each of the past 3 years and I haven’t looked further , so in the circumstances I think it right to back the referee unless there was evidence to the contrary.

His touchline bans relate to outspoken criticism of decisions and poor choice of language, not dishonesty. McKenna is the most respectful manager I have come across since Bobby Robson and however disappointed he might have been he would not have fabricated such a story.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: Whistleblower on Wed 01 Feb 2023 22:58
Unless one was present and heard the exchange between the referee and the managers then any conclusion we might draw is speculation. That speculation may be informed by circumstantial evidence or it may be informed by our existing predispositions whether to believe or not believe referees and managers. Unless it was proved that there had been no collusion between the managers and their accounts of what the referee said were entirely independent, I personally wouldn't give too much credence to the fact they they both took the same line. If I was pressed to judgement then, Mr Madden being a Scottish gentleman, I think I would resort to the peculiarly Scottish verdict of Not Proven.

Yes, I'd take that verdict, whilst it's still around. It does mean guilty as hell but we can't prove it, doesn't it?  ;)

Regardless of the wishes of the managers, Madden was clearly remiss in allowing the game to continue practically invisible to the paying customers and the thousands who paid iFollow for the privilege. He should at the very least be taken to task at that.


I'm not sure the Faculty of Advocates would quite put it like that. Not Proven implies that there is quite possibly guilt but it has not been established to a point beyond reasonable doubt. A Not Proven verdict counts as an acquittal. Indeed, the First Minister has indicated her intention to remove this 'third' verdict from the Scottish legal system.

As regards fog, I am in entire agreement. It is quite wrong to take admittance money from people who then are unable to see the spectacle for which they have paid. It's back to the thorny old issue of are you paying money for admittance to a ground ( where there is a reasonable expectation of sport being played ). I remember over forty five years ago being at Stamford Bridge and a thick fog descending so that much of the pitch was invisible to the spectators and I suspect the linesmen could not see to the far side of the pitch so as to correctly call offsides. However, the match went ahead and concluded. It was farcical. My less than perfect recollection is that the referee was possibly Trevor Spencer.
Title: Re: Oxford Utd v Ipswich Town - Bobby Madden
Post by: Readingfan on Wed 01 Feb 2023 23:07
Is the audio from the referee recorded at League 1 level? I think it is at Premier League level.

I think Nemesis is probably right that the PGMOL shouldn't investigate such matters themselves. That said, I've not been able to find out much information on if any complaints were made and what exactly the process was to establish the details of what happened.