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General Refereeing => General Discussion => Topic started by: fatso on Mon 24 Dec 2018 08:57

Title: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: fatso on Mon 24 Dec 2018 08:57

Mike sent off Lewis Dunk for 2 cautions but TV has shown that the first yellow card should have been issued to Yves Bissouma. Whilst I understand that given the nature of the challenge with both players very close to the opponent that the mistake was one of those things that happen but what I find really frustrating as a Brighton fan is that there is no appeal against the sending off due to mistaken identity as it was 2 yellows. There is no issue with the second yellow card and had it been obvious that Dunk had been booked then I would not be so frustrated. However the yellow card was waved in the direction of several players (I asked my mate who had been cautioned and he did not know) and Dunk has also said he did not realise he had been cauioned. Had it been a straight red card an appeal could have been made or if an incident is missed a red card can be given retrospectively but no action can be taken for this. We would not have got anything from the game but we are now missing Lewis Dunk for the game v Arsenal on Boxing Day. As they say the law is an ass.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Acme Thunderer on Mon 24 Dec 2018 09:20

As a long-standing Palace fan, I wouldn't normally say this to a Brighton fan, but I am in full agreement with you fatso on this one. Is there no right of appeal in this case or could Mike Dean not ask for the first caution to be rescinded because of mistaken identity? As you say, the law is an ass if there is no right of appeal. Surely Dunk would have a case for taking the FA to an employment tribunal on the grounds that he was being denied the opportunity to follow his profession (for one match) for something he clearly didn't do. Roll on VAR I say. 

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: TheThingFromLewes on Mon 24 Dec 2018 09:51

I think it’s pretty unfortunate for the Wirral card shark in this situation. The contact initially was a micro second before Dunk appeared on the scene. There was no chance of the AR helping as it was the blind side.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Boz on Mon 24 Dec 2018 15:57

I can recall Paul Danson wrongly giving Gareth Roberts short/fair hair a second yellow rather than Ryan Taylor tall/dark hair. It was corrected later. Don’t see why Mike Dean can’t be allowed to correct the mistake (assuming he accepts it as such) and apply the initial booking to the perpetrator.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: bmb on Mon 24 Dec 2018 17:02

Can the 1st yellow not be rescinded for mistaken identity? It could be if the 2nd yellow hadn't followed so that should still be allowed, imo anyway. Completely agree with you Fatso on the technique used for the 1st booking - we certainly didn't have a clue who it had been shown to either!

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: ARF on Tue 25 Dec 2018 09:53

Yes, you can claim mistaken identity for one or both cautions when a player has been sent off for a second caution.

At Step 4 and above the only thing you can't do is claim wrongful dismissal for a sending off for a second caution - at Step 5 and below you also can't claim wrongful dismissal for a sending off for OFFINABUS.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Steelman on Tue 25 Dec 2018 16:57

Fairly sure in Scotland the only time you can appeal a yellow is mistaken identity

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Acme Thunderer on Tue 25 Dec 2018 19:39

I had thought that Santa might have appeared and granted Dunk his wish to play v Arsenal. But no, this is Christmas Day and nothing happens on CD, and with only 24 hours to go until the fixture is played, there seems little possibility now of Dunk being able to take his rightful place in the Brighton team. And in my view, it is totally wrong that mistaken identity, combined with a congested fixture list and Christmas Day, should conspire to deprive a player of his opportunity to play in the PL  ???   

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Acme Thunderer on Thu 27 Dec 2018 17:29

Quote from: ARF on Tue 25 Dec 2018 09:53

Yes, you can claim mistaken identity for one or both cautions when a player has been sent off for a second caution.

At Step 4 and above the only thing you can't do is claim wrongful dismissal for a sending off for a second caution - at Step 5 and below you also can't claim wrongful dismissal for a sending off for OFFINABUS.

According to The Sun: the law states: "A claim of wrongful dismissal may be lodged only for on-field offences which result in a sending off, except for two cautions leading to a dismissal."

So Dunk couldn't appeal and presumably didn't play v Arsenal. Disgraceful!

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Readingfan on Fri 28 Dec 2018 00:29

Would this fall under the grounds of mistaken identity or just thinking a player had committed a foul when he hadn't? There seems a slight distinction between the two with the latter happening quite frequently.

If the referee sees a shirt pull which is from Player X and he mistakenly cautions Player Y then that is obviously mistaken identity.

If the referee misses the shirt pull from Player X though but thinks Player Y makes a body check immediately after, even if he actually didn't, and cautions Player Y for that then that seems a slightly different issue.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: ARF on Fri 28 Dec 2018 21:41

Quote from: Readingfan on Fri 28 Dec 2018 00:29

Would this fall under the grounds of mistaken identity or just thinking a player had committed a foul when he hadn't? There seems a slight distinction between the two with the latter happening quite frequently.

If the referee sees a shirt pull which is from Player X and he mistakenly cautions Player Y then that is obviously mistaken identity.

If the referee misses the shirt pull from Player X though but thinks Player Y makes a body check immediately after, even if he actually didn't, and cautions Player Y for that then that seems a slightly different issue.

Therein lies the issue - without confirmation from MD/PGMOL/The FA, we may never know!

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Acme Thunderer on Sat 29 Dec 2018 11:46

I hear what you are saying readingfan, but I don't think there is any doubt that this is a case of mistaken identity. Seeing the way Mike Dean performs, I am sure that if (for example) he had cautioned Dunk for dissent or a subsequent foul, he would have made it plain to the crowd, the 4O, the managers.... and in all probability, the FA or PL or PGMOL would have confirmed this after the match. It is not being told that makes me think the FA realise there is a problem in this case. And, although I need perhaps to be careful how I word this, I suggest that a look at pics of Dunk and Bissouma will confirm that the hand which shoved the Arsenal player in the back leading to the first caution was definitely not Dunk's. This needs to be looked at by the FA pdq. I will say no more.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: rustyref on Sat 29 Dec 2018 12:09

I suspect that Mike Dean thought that Dunk has tripped him, and therein lies the problem.  Yes it is wrong, but had Bissouma not been there and he still wrongly thought that Dunk had tripped the opponent then the caution wouldn't be rescinded there.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: nemesis on Sat 29 Dec 2018 13:12

Quote from: rustyref on Sat 29 Dec 2018 12:09

I suspect that Mike Dean thought that Dunk has tripped him, and therein lies the problem.  Yes it is wrong, but had Bissouma not been there and he still wrongly thought that Dunk had tripped the opponent then the caution wouldn't be rescinded there.

 .... which clearly illustrates that the appeals process is not fit for purpose.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Readingfan on Sat 29 Dec 2018 16:37

Quote from: rustyref on Sat 29 Dec 2018 12:09

I suspect that Mike Dean thought that Dunk has tripped him, and therein lies the problem.  Yes it is wrong, but had Bissouma not been there and he still wrongly thought that Dunk had tripped the opponent then the caution wouldn't be rescinded there.

Exactly - that was what I was trying to get at.

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Readingfan on Sat 29 Dec 2018 16:38

Quote from: Acme Thunderer on Sat 29 Dec 2018 11:46

I hear what you are saying readingfan, but I don't think there is any doubt that this is a case of mistaken identity. Seeing the way Mike Dean performs, I am sure that if (for example) he had cautioned Dunk for dissent or a subsequent foul, he would have made it plain to the crowd, the 4O, the managers.... and in all probability, the FA or PL or PGMOL would have confirmed this after the match. It is not being told that makes me think the FA realise there is a problem in this case. And, although I need perhaps to be careful how I word this, I suggest that a look at pics of Dunk and Bissouma will confirm that the hand which shoved the Arsenal player in the back leading to the first caution was definitely not Dunk's. This needs to be looked at by the FA pdq. I will say no more.

Arsenal player? It's mistaken identity all round! ;)

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: bmb on Sat 29 Dec 2018 17:24

Quote from: Readingfan on Sat 29 Dec 2018 16:38

Arsenal player? It's mistaken identity all round! ;)

Well obviously if an Arsenal player was booked in AFCB V BHAFC it would be rather odd to say the least...

Title: Re: Mike Dean AFC Bournemouth v Brighton
Post by: Acme Thunderer on Sat 29 Dec 2018 19:35

Whoops, senior moment, I was thinking of Brighton v Arsenal, and must still be feeling the effects of the festive season. Cheers!  ;D