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General Refereeing => General Discussion => Topic started by: Microscopist on Wed 07 Nov 2018 20:01

Title: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Microscopist on Wed 07 Nov 2018 20:01
Oh good the officials are wearing yellow!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Microscopist on Wed 07 Nov 2018 20:24
Oh dear.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: dave26 on Wed 07 Nov 2018 21:01
A truly staggering error by such a experienced referee , surely at least one other official should have seen it and alerted Kassai

I will be surprised if he gets another CL appointment this season
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Game of Throw Ins on Wed 07 Nov 2018 21:08
If I had made a decision like that I’d definitely want one of my colleagues to inform me. Why does this not happen ?

The official behind the goal almost certainly would know it’s a horrendous decision and at least one of the ARs very likely would too. Why hang your colleague out to dry ? 
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Carter on Wed 07 Nov 2018 21:16
If I had made a decision like that I’d definitely want one of my colleagues to inform me. Why does this not happen ?

The official behind the goal almost certainly would know it’s a horrendous decision and at least one of the ARs very likely would too. Why hang your colleague out to dry ?

I reckon he has blown that quickly and pointed he hasnt given anyone the opportunity to change his decision.
very few assistants would question it at the time perhaps, although you would think the non officizls behind the goal could have told him

Still its beyond belief he gave it without waiting a second or two for verbal advice
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: kelxref on Wed 07 Nov 2018 21:17
Agree. Embarrassing decision. Victor Kassai was not in the best of positions directly behind and in line with Sterling. I cannot believe he didn’t get some input from the AAR (Bognar?). On the BT coverage it showed the AAR (who had an unobstructed view) making a gesture looking as if he was supporting the penalty!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: BabyRef on Wed 07 Nov 2018 21:52
I like him as a ref but that is one of the worst decisions I've ever seen at top level unfortunately
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: ajb95 on Wed 07 Nov 2018 22:00
A truly staggering error by such a experienced referee , surely at least one other official should have seen it and alerted Kassai

I will be surprised if he gets another CL appointment this season

Be surprised if he gets another European game at all!
Utterly embarrassing!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: flipmode on Wed 07 Nov 2018 22:31
A staggering decision to give the penalty, but he "evened it up" (words of the Optus Sport commentators, not mine) by not giving a penalty in the second half for the foul on Sterling.

You just don't expect those decisions from Kassai.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: QuoCob on Wed 07 Nov 2018 22:33
Why didn't Sterling 'own up'?
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: dave26 on Wed 07 Nov 2018 22:56
I think Bmb will at the brandy and somewhat distraught or she will be giving Viktir the elbow lol
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Microscopist on Wed 07 Nov 2018 23:30
Why didn't Sterling 'own up'?
Of course it would have been to his credit if he had, but I must have missed the debate after last season's Manchester Derby criticising Ashley Young for not going up to Martin Atkinson and saying "Hey ref that was a red card challenge I made on Aguero in the penalty area, you need to send me off and award a penalty to City".
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Readingfan on Wed 07 Nov 2018 23:56
What has happened to Kassai?

For a time, he was one of the best referees in Europe but he's been in decline for so long now. It's quite unusual for a career to peak so early.

It's a bit sad.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: TVOS on Wed 07 Nov 2018 23:59
A staggering decision to give the penalty, but he "evened it up" (words of the Optus Sport commentators, not mine) by not giving a penalty in the second half for the foul on Sterling.

You just don't expect those decisions from Kassai.

Just seen the supposed second penalty on the highlights. Sterling was as culpable as his opponent in that incident.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: bruntyboy on Thu 08 Nov 2018 01:24
Why didn't Sterling 'own up'?
Of course it would have been to his credit if he had, but I must have missed the debate after last season's Manchester Derby criticising Ashley Young for not going up to Martin Atkinson and saying "Hey ref that was a red card challenge I made on Aguero in the penalty area, you need to send me off and award a penalty to City".

I must have mssed the debate after the previous season's Manchester Derby criticising Claudio Bravo for not going up to the referee and saying "Hey ref that was a red card challenge I made on Rooney in the penalty area, you need to send me off and award a penalty to United."
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: TheThingFromLewes on Thu 08 Nov 2018 06:59
Oh dear..... that's all I can say really!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Microscopist on Thu 08 Nov 2018 08:07
Why didn't Sterling 'own up'?
Of course it would have been to his credit if he had, but I must have missed the debate after last season's Manchester Derby criticising Ashley Young for not going up to Martin Atkinson and saying "Hey ref that was a red card challenge I made on Aguero in the penalty area, you need to send me off and award a penalty to City".

I must have mssed the debate after the previous season's Manchester Derby criticising Claudio Bravo for not going up to the referee and saying "Hey ref that was a red card challenge I made on Rooney in the penalty area, you need to send me off and award a penalty to United."
Yes, just so; thank you for expanding on my point that if one player can be criticised for not advising the referee that he has made an error in his own favour then that should apply to all players.  And for the flattery.  Of course if we could all apply the Corinthian ethos perfectly then we would see an amazing transformation in the world as a whole.  However, we could muse that that might render referees redundant and consequently lead to the demise of this forum.
 
Given that this utopia is unlikely to come about in our lifetime we should encourage the use of VAR, which would surely have reversed this decision.  If Guardiola is to be believed, Manchester City are in favour of VAR, unlike some of their rivals.  So perhaps we should direct our dismay at this decision not at the officials or players but rather at those who are resisting giving referees the benefits of modern technology to assist their decision making.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Hadrian on Thu 08 Nov 2018 08:33
What has happened to Kassai?

For a time, he was one of the best referees in Europe but he's been in decline for so long now. It's quite unusual for a career to peak so early.

It's a bit sad.

I agree.  He hasn't been a top referee for many years now.  This decision is still staggering though.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: QuoCob on Thu 08 Nov 2018 09:17
Why didn't Sterling 'own up'?
Of course it would have been to his credit if he had, but I must have missed the debate after last season's Manchester Derby criticising Ashley Young for not going up to Martin Atkinson and saying "Hey ref that was a red card challenge I made on Aguero in the penalty area, you need to send me off and award a penalty to City".

I must have mssed the debate after the previous season's Manchester Derby criticising Claudio Bravo for not going up to the referee and saying "Hey ref that was a red card challenge I made on Rooney in the penalty area, you need to send me off and award a penalty to United."
Yes, just so; thank you for expanding on my point that if one player can be criticised for not advising the referee that he has made an error in his own favour then that should apply to all players.  And for the flattery.  Of course if we could all apply the Corinthian ethos perfectly then we would see an amazing transformation in the world as a whole.  However, we could muse that that might render referees redundant and consequently lead to the demise of this forum.
 
Given that this utopia is unlikely to come about in our lifetime we should encourage the use of VAR, which would surely have reversed this decision.  If Guardiola is to be believed, Manchester City are in favour of VAR, unlike some of their rivals.  So perhaps we should direct our dismay at this decision not at the officials or players but rather at those who are resisting giving referees the benefits of modern technology to assist their decision making.


My initial comment wasn't intended to be a criticism.
However in hindsight he probably wishes he had now because he would have been world wide now, in a similar fashion to the di Canio incident when he caught the ball when the goalkeeper was injured.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: QuoCob on Thu 08 Nov 2018 09:22
Regarding the decision, it is an excellent example to up and coming officials that it doesn't matter how far behind the quick break you are, get yourself as wide as possible to give you that better angle for such a challenge.  He remained linear, therefore didn't give himself that opportunity.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: ajb95 on Thu 08 Nov 2018 10:21
Regarding the decision, it is an excellent example to up and coming officials that it doesn't matter how far behind the quick break you are, get yourself as wide as possible to give you that better angle for such a challenge.  He remained linear, therefore didn't give himself that opportunity.

But there was an assistant on the far side and an AAR in the penalty area who could have helped out! If AAR are to be used then they need to start DOING SOMETHING!!
It’s decisions like this that will get an untested, rushed VAR through who will ultimately make the decisions and all referees will be robotic or redundant!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: bmb on Thu 08 Nov 2018 12:24
I'm gutted for him.  He has been having a great season, including in Europe. He is still one of the best referees in Europe, as his merit marks so far this season have reflected before last night, but that was an absolute howler. To a degree I can understand it from his viewpoint, the Shakatar defender does kick out literally a second before Sterling goes to ground, and his mind has filled in the rest. It's when you see the side view that he did not have, that you can really see the defender is 2 feet away and even bmb with her girly driving could have driven a double decker bus through the gap. From the behind view that he had, that gap is not so easy to judge. He needed help from his AAR that didn't come, as kelxref has already pointed out, Tamás supported the decision, when they show the replay from just a bit towards the corner from Tamás, you can see him speaking over the comms and he points his baton towards the penalty spot, so he has let Viktor down there, imo. Thereagain his view looked to be partially obscured by the goalie who was outstretched on the floor by then.  I haven't seen any reply that shows the angle/view that György had or whether he was in a better position to help. I'm pretty sure György would have been yelling "nem büntetőrúgás" down the comms if he had a good view. György is one of the best ARs going and has always been the most reliable member of Viktor's team.

It would have been nice if Sterling had owned up at the time instead of apologising to the ref and opposition in his interview after.  He did not dive, it was not a deliberate act in going down but in my mind by not owning up at the time & saying ref I tripped up he never touched me, it then becomes an attempt to deceive the referee. He knew that should not have been a pen. Whether Viktor would have reversed the decision or not I don't know but the scope is there for him to change it before the ball is back in play.  Fair play to Pep for at least saying to the 4th official straight away that Sterling had tripped & I thought he was absolute class in his post match interview when discussing it. I'm not sure what the allowance is for a 4th official to step in and say to the ref, you've ballsed up there mate, reverse the decision and give a drop ball - certainly VAR would have given him that option.

He did at least get the other 3 penalty shouts spot on! Changed his accuracy rate on the big calls from 100% wrong to 75% correct/25% wrong! Like I say I am absolutely gutted for him, he's been superb this season so far and I was so desperate for him to carry on that form. I hope this doesn't knock his confidence too much. For me he is still one of the best and most reliable (more often than not) refs out there.

My final word on the matter - we all know about my absolute obsessive hatred of yellow. It is of no coincidence in bmb's mind that the very first time he has worn yellow this season he made his very first KMI error... Perhaps now Mr K will finally believe me that it is a vile and very evil colour and should never be worn! Domestically he has worn black in every game bar one, when he wore blue, in Saudi he wore orange in one game, red in the other, in Europe/International games he has worn black & maybe blue once as well - zero errors. All big calls correct including in one domestic game where there were a total of 12 huge calls - 2 red cards, a goal disallowed, a pen given, another pen shout correctly not given - they were mostly against my team as well, we lost and were reduced to 9 men but it was an absolute masterclass ref performance - he wore black! There is an analysis of that game here if anyone is interested: http://www.hungarianfootball.com/2018/07/26/ujpest-v-mtk-a-look-at-the-big-calls/! I've not quite forgiven him yet for sending off my main man Branko, correct decision or not, mind! Currently I am certainly not in the mood to be forgiving of the vile yellow shirt last night! Take my advice Mr K and burn it!!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: bmb on Thu 08 Nov 2018 12:46
I think Bmb will at the brandy and somewhat distraught or she will be giving Viktir the elbow lol

I'm on the palinká - it'll look a bit better after a few more of them! He's damn lucky he has such a cute smile!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: QuoCob on Thu 08 Nov 2018 13:25
Regarding the decision, it is an excellent example to up and coming officials that it doesn't matter how far behind the quick break you are, get yourself as wide as possible to give you that better angle for such a challenge.  He remained linear, therefore didn't give himself that opportunity.

But there was an assistant on the far side and an AAR in the penalty area who could have helped out! If AAR are to be used then they need to start DOING SOMETHING!!
It’s decisions like this that will get an untested, rushed VAR through who will ultimately make the decisions and all referees will be robotic or redundant!

You are confusing my comment by applying it to this incident, I am applying it to up and coming 'grassroots' officials as a learning message.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: TheThingFromLewes on Thu 08 Nov 2018 17:17
What kind of mark would Kassai get from the observer for making such a dreadful error?
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: rustyref on Thu 08 Nov 2018 17:25
What kind of mark would Kassai get from the observer for making such a dreadful error?


7.9, assuming that was his only incorrect KMI in the game.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Boz on Thu 08 Nov 2018 19:02
While I would have preferred Sterling to try and alert Mr Kassai to the mistake in awarding a penalty, I also accept Microscopist's points that the typical modern player wouldn't do so and VAR could have rectified things here. Also recall Robbie Fowler telling a referee (Mr Elleray?) a penalty he'd awarded against Arsenal was wrong, but the official didn't change his mind.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: bmb on Thu 08 Nov 2018 20:00
I think Bmb will at the brandy and somewhat distraught or she will be giving Viktir the elbow lol

I'm on the palinká - it'll look a bit better after a few more of them! He's damn lucky he has such a cute smile!

Turkish ref in the Vidi game was kinda cute, albeit a bit young! Mr K needs to up his game - less yellow & more smiles or his top totty spot might also be in jeopardy!
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: Wollongong Ref on Thu 08 Nov 2018 22:50
As a MUFC  fan (please do not throw things at me) can I throw something into the mix to defend the City player..... In that split second of kicking the turf would he have known? or would his instinctive response been to think he was tripped/ tackled from behind and there for that is why he fell over?
As for the referee.... clearly no width. This has become the default position for referees around the world. While it works generally well, when it goes wrong it goes very wrong.
Has the amount of refereeing over the last 15 years taken a toll mentally and in terms of fatigue. We see in Australia our top referees burn out well before their retirement age
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: robbie_scouse on Fri 09 Nov 2018 08:11
Also recall Robbie Fowler telling a referee (Mr Elleray?) a penalty he'd awarded against Arsenal was wrong, but the official didn't change his mind.
It was the late Gerald Ashby who gave the penalty and, as you say, refused to change his mind in spite of Robbie Fowler's protests.  Fowler took, and missed, the subsequent spot kick, although Jason McAteer (IIRC) netted the rebound.
Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: TheThingFromLewes on Sat 10 Nov 2018 18:56
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/11/08/referees-cant-expect-players-like-raheem-sterling-simply-terrible/

Hackett pouring his thoughts out once again.... he refers to the Ashby/Fowler debacle.

Title: Re: Viktor Kassai M/C City v Shakhtar
Post by: bmb on Sun 11 Nov 2018 04:05
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/11/08/referees-cant-expect-players-like-raheem-sterling-simply-terrible/

Hackett pouring his thoughts out once again.... he refers to the Ashby/Fowler debacle.



This: Kassai, who is one of the best refs around, singularly failed to do this yesterday. His vision of the incident was impeded by players in front of him, and then he did something that referees are told never to do: he guessed.

When he realised he didn't have a good enough view he should have consulted the rest of his team. But then the official stood behind the goal is a waste of time and this underlines that. While he's not allowed to make a signal visually, he has got a communication link and I'm amazed he couldn't help the referee here.

When you're operating with additional assistant referees, you're looking for the official behind the goal to step up. But between him and the referee they made a complete mess of it.


I agree with the 1st 9 words but he has that completely wrong about the AAR because Bognár was quite clearly shown on the replay speaking into his comms and pointing to the spot with his baton so he does make a visual signal & either backs up Kassai's decision or is the one who actually called it!!! I believe it to be the latter due to the fact that he makes the signal - he wouldn't need to if he was just backing up Kassai and saying yeah mate you called it right. As we all know I watch the NB1 obsessively, where they use AAR's as a matter of course and they always use signals with the baton. When the ball goes over the line, not between the goal posts obviously, they either point to the corner flag or towards the goal depending on whether they are saying corner or goal kick and if they have seen something that the ref hasn't or they are in a better position to judge and either call a pen, when they point towards the pen spot or a defensive free kick where they point towards the goalie. It's not a huge signal like you see from the AR sticking his flag up, their arm stays still and it's a flick of the wrist movement. It happens in every game, every week in their domestic league. I first noticed it when Solymosi Péter (bmb's fav NB1 ref) was AAR in a match maybe 2/3 seasons ago and saw him signalling a couple of times and it threw me as to why, I wondered at the time if the comms had gone down so he was signaling as there were no comms in use, so the next few games I watched the AARs a bit more and noticed they all do it, it's standard practice there. I saw it happen a dozen or more times today from various AAR's across the 5 games that I watched. As soon as I was able to see the replays I've been of the firm belief that it was Bognár that called it, not Kassai. The fact Bognár did make the signal has been noted in the Hungarian press, who of course are used to AAR's using signals and the general consensus is that it was him who made the call & has let Kassai down, like Vad did in the Euros 2012 & a lot of surprise was expressed that Bognár was on a game this weekend (as AAR) but Kassai wasn't because as I say the consensus in Hungary is that Kassai was not the one who called it. Bear in mind with that also the fact that one of the media outlets defending Kassai and putting the blame at Bognár door is one who have a historical dislike of Kassai and take any opportunity they can to have a swipe at him & they are actively defending him on this call. I'm anti betting personally, but I would lay money on if an audio recording was played of the comms at the time, Bognár will be heard saying "büntetőrúgás" or "büntetőrúgó" (penalty kick) or a shortened version of that, büntető or büntetés. I haven't yet worked out which the grammatically correct version is and when a penalty has been scored it just shows as (bü) after the scorers name. Kassai of course would take the blame either way, as he did with the Vad error in 2012, his view is that as team leader he is responsible for every call whether made directly by him or indirectly via one of his team. He'd never hang one of his team out to dry like that & I've personally had the conversation with him over Vad's error & no matter how many times he was asked and in how many different ways his response was the same, "I was the referee, I am responsible for any decision made" so I know he would say exactly the same here if asked.