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General Refereeing => General Discussion => Topic started by: Irishref1985 on Tue 04 May 2021 20:10

Title: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Irishref1985 on Tue 04 May 2021 20:10
A shocker from the ever reliable Bjorn Kuipers to give PSG a penalty. What has he seen? He is so far off with that decision. VAR didn’t even have to look at that twice to overrule
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: TillysDad on Tue 04 May 2021 20:21
Not impressed so far,now given handball against Foden when he chested it,he guessed
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Alex04 on Tue 04 May 2021 20:30
He got caught in a bad position - suddenly playing right back for Man City - and got sold on the reactions from the PSG players. He has not taken any sh*t off of them since though.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Irishref1985 on Tue 04 May 2021 21:20
Not a great display from Kuipers. Guessing a lot of decisions and getting them wrong...
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Irishref1985 on Tue 04 May 2021 21:34
Red card correct decision but this has been a very poor display from Kuipers
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: dave26 on Tue 04 May 2021 21:56
I disagree with the above.  The couple of early mistakes aside I think Kuipers has regrouped and been excellent, dealt with handbags very well, got the RC spot on and what was proving to be a difficult match to referee when PSG lost their discipline he handled very well and was calm and collected
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: rustyref on Tue 04 May 2021 22:08
Aside from he might need an anatomy lesson as to where the arm is, that was an outstanding refereeing performance.  He didn't fall for any attempts by players to con fouls, and managed the situation with the sending off perfectly.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Ref Fan on Tue 04 May 2021 22:22
That would have been a very challenging game for a lesser referee but Kuipers experience and ability proved invaluable in game and player management.
My initial reaction to one of the fouls which drew YC when PSG lost their discipline was that it was of the orange variety for possible SFP but I suspect Kuipers was sensible to opt for the lesser sanction.

Well done City.  It's up to the other half of Manchester to progress to the Europa Final, hopefully without any protests by the fans.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Ashington46 on Tue 04 May 2021 22:28
That would have been a very challenging game for a lesser referee but Kuipers experience and ability proved invaluable in game and player management.
My initial reaction to one of the fouls which drew YC when PSG lost their discipline was that it was of the orange variety for possible SFP but I suspect Kuipers was sensible to opt for the lesser sanction.

Well done City.  It's up to the other half of Manchester to progress to the Europa Final, hopefully without any protests by the fans.

Totally agree. He was experienced enough to ignore the attempts of numerous players to con him into giving fouls for absolutely nothing and he made it plain that he was not going to be conned.
I agree about PSG losing their discipline and testing his patience to the limit, however, he used common sense and was on top of everything.
In spite of lots of things going on he seemed to have a decent rapport with the players.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: LateTackle on Wed 05 May 2021 01:35
I didn't think Kuipers had a good game at all tonight.  The overturned penalty was an extremely poor effort, as others have suggested he seemed to guess.  Then he got the Foden handball wrong too.  There were several dubious calls/non calls for fouls too.  You can't have a referee guessing in a CL semi final.

Once PSG lost their discipline their behaviour was petulant in the extreme, as was their rolling around simulating injury all evening.  I don't think Kuipers got to grips with the PSG histrionics at all, he seemed to indulge them to avoid further confrontation, although a few yellow cards were waved around.  Verratti, in particular, was very fortunate to stay on the pitch.  I remarked when the 2 minutes were held up that he couldn't get off the pitch quick enough.  Not a good night at the office.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: flipmode on Wed 05 May 2021 06:22
Didn't the AR give the penalty? My initial thought was that Kuipers wasn't going to give it and moved to run away, but noticed the AR flagging (admittedly off screen).

Might be wrong, but that was the impression I got.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: ajb95 on Wed 05 May 2021 07:56
Didn’t watch it as I was at my friends who had it on in the background- one thing I noticed was just after half time from a PSG corner he gave a free kick to city even though it was the city defender who pushed the PSG player to the ground. Not a penalty but definitely not a city free kick either
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: DublinRef on Wed 05 May 2021 09:28
I am a big fan of Kuipers but I don't think this was his most accomplished performance. While the game was never out of control I don't feel he ever had a total handle on proceedings and it was always close to boiling over, he wasn't successful in taking the heat out of the game and that made it nasty when PSG realised they weren't going to qualify. I thought could have been a little stronger with dissent, Zinchenko for example I think really pushed his luck by continuing to protest, very visibly, while being cautioned.

In terms of the penalty call, whether influenced by the AR or not Kuipers didn't seem totally comfortable and for good reason - it was a bad call. The positive being that the VAR intervention and OFR were handled efficiently and the right outcome was reached. I think after this though, his acceptance by the players went down.

The other big calls all came in the second half and in my opinion PSG could/should have had 4 red cards. And possibly the manager red carded as well.

The first was totally correct for the stamp by Di Maria. Very well handled and quickly too, very good job by the FO Sidiropoulos to intervene very quickly and calm tensions as best he could. Pochettino then enters the field, initially to pull back his players - technically he shouldn't do this and entering the field like this should result in a red card, however I think given he was helping to calm the situation at this point common sense would clearly dictate no action be taken against him. After this however he started to protest with Kuipers. IMO a manager who enters the pitch, game stopped or not and stays there protesting with the referee should be sent off. Would this have been the right action for Kuipers to take? Well it would surely have made things kick off at an already tense moment so I can understand his inaction and perhaps it is supportable. However, to save a major incident occurring, I think he sacrificed the level of respect he could command and I thought after this players behaviour deteriorated further (also of course PSG realising hope was fading).

Next Verratti pulled back his opponent and tripped him with the legs. While not quite reckless I think it comfortably fell into the SPA category. Was it one of those 100% nailed on no option other than to caution incidents? Probably not. If Verratti wasn't on a yellow already would he have been cautioned? Almost certainly IMO. I can understand why Kuipers wanted a nailed on yellow or even an orange card for a second yellow at this stage, however by the book Verratti was extremely lucky.

The next two incidents IMO should have been straight red cards - Kimpembe lunged in with a swinging kick aimed at his opponent. Minimal contact was made but for me this was not SFP it was VC. Yes the ball was there but IMO there was absolutely no attempt to play it, he attempted to kick his opponent with significant force. This should have been a red card and I also think it would have been fine for VAR to intervene here.

Next Pereira makes a knee high tackle, with studs and indeed makes contact on the knee. For me again this is a red card, admittedly the contact is glancing however being so high and far from the ball I think it is SFP. In this case though probably not enough  for a VAR intervention but a red card is fully supportable.

So all in all I think 4 red cards for PSG players would have been entirely supportable rather than only the one as was given. Now I guess the question is whether or not Kuipers should have issued 4 red cards and binned the manager? Well, I suppose this is the dilemma of top level refereeing, how far can one deviate from the laws for the greater good of the game. Kuipers decisions not to issue numerous red cards likely prevented the game from descending into a total farce but they also degraded his authority and control. I think this was an almost inevitable trade-off by the time we got to abut 65 minutes as Kuipers had failed to take the nasty undertone out of the game at that point. From then on he had little choice but to sacrifice some of his own authority and possibly sanction at a lower level than the law calls for in order to stop the game ending in a complete mess. This is the great challenge of refereeing high difficulty matches at the very top level and while Kuipers didn't ever let the game get totally out of control, his poor anticipation of the rising tension in the middle stage of the game, backed him into a corner towards the end.

On the whole, given the fact that at this level one must take decisions with the greater good in mind I don't think this can be classed as a total disaster from Kuipers. The average fan won't be talking about his performance (accusations of foul language aside) and to be fair to him, I think many referees without his immense ability would have totally lost control. That said, given the high standards of game management we have learnt to expect from Kuipers this will go down as one of his poorer performances. I'm sure he will recover and perform at his usual high standards at the EURO.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Ref Fan on Wed 05 May 2021 09:59
A very detailed and well reasoned post DublinRef.  I don't necessarily agree with every point but the impression I was left with was that a lesser referee would have been really struggling with that game.  It will be interesting to see what edy or UEFA made of Kuipers performance.

On some of the specifics, Zinchenko was really wound up in that game.  He was mouthing off after the wrong penalty call even though Kuipers had quickly been called to the monitor and appeared demented after the YC later.  Credit to the captain, Fernandinho, for at least trying to move him away and calm him down.

On the possible RC's, I agree Verratti was somewhat fortunate not to get a second YC soon after the first caution, and as I suggested in an earlier post it was the Kimpembe challenge that I felt was distinctly of the orange variety.

Given what had happened, it did seem to me that Kuipers retained a rapport with a few of the PSG players, so I wouldn't say he lost total respect by any means. 

I guess he won't be totally satisfied with his own performance, but in the context of that game I was relieved we had such an experienced and top official in charge.   
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Ref Fan on Wed 05 May 2021 13:43
I find it fascinating how opinions can vary over a referee's performance.  Descriptions have varied from very poor to outstanding and excellent.
DublinRef offered "not a disaster" but "one of his poorer performances".  Is "disappointing" a suitable adjective?  For my part, I would label it "decent" but by no means perfect - and not just because of the handball errors.

One point from DublinRef's post I would highlight is:
"This is the great challenge of refereeing high difficulty matches at the very top level and while Kuipers didn't ever let the game get totally out of control, his poor anticipation of the rising tension in the middle stage of the game, backed him into a corner towards the end".

An excellent comment and highlighting again his earlier point whether the referee's prime role in this sort of game is to strictly apply the Laws or to seek to manage proceedings for the greater good of the game.  A dilemma referees like Graham Poll and Mark Clattenburg faced in the PL on occasions in the past, not always answered successfully some would argue.   

Not seen any view from Halsey or Hackett yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Kuiper's performance didn't split opinion among our current SG1 referees. 

A good debate though and contributions appreciated.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Ref Watcher on Wed 05 May 2021 14:48
One point from DublinRef's post I would highlight is:
"This is the great challenge of refereeing high difficulty matches at the very top level and while Kuipers didn't ever let the game get totally out of control, his poor anticipation of the rising tension in the middle stage of the game, backed him into a corner towards the end".

An excellent comment and highlighting again his earlier point whether the referee's prime role in this sort of game is to strictly apply the Laws or to seek to manage proceedings for the greater good of the game.
A dilemma not just at this level.  Even at my lowly level I am always mindful of which camp the day's Observer falls into. 
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Ashington46 on Wed 05 May 2021 16:47
Reading that PSG are demanding a UEFA investigation because they allege that the referee used foul and abusive language to two of their players.
What happened to the idea that what happens on the field stays on the field?

I suppose that they will be putting this all over social media before we know where we are, even if only to make up for the blank out over the weekend.
What the heck is happening to football at this level? It is like squabbling schoolchildren.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Whistleblower on Wed 05 May 2021 18:42
Reading that PSG are demanding a UEFA investigation because they allege that the referee used foul and abusive language to two of their players.
What happened to the idea that what happens on the field stays on the field?

I suppose that they will be putting this all over social media before we know where we are, even if only to make up for the blank out over the weekend.
What the heck is happening to football at this level? It is like squabbling schoolchildren.


What delicate little flowers the players of PSG are; or more likely just very sore losers. Don't know about Kuipers' language, they should have come across Gordon Hill or John Key in their pomp.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: bmb on Wed 05 May 2021 19:10
Reading that PSG are demanding a UEFA investigation because they allege that the referee used foul and abusive language to two of their players.
What happened to the idea that what happens on the field stays on the field?

I suppose that they will be putting this all over social media before we know where we are, even if only to make up for the blank out over the weekend.
What the heck is happening to football at this level? It is like squabbling schoolchildren.

It was all over social media last night.

I don't suppose either of the little darlings mentioned how many times they swore at him or any other ref this season.  If it is true and the players are crying about it then perhaps they should stop and have a look in the mirror at their own behaviour/conduct & clean up their potty mouths. Funny how they consider it acceptable industrial language when they are dishing it out
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Irishref1985 on Wed 05 May 2021 19:19
In fairness now the way PSG carried on at stages of the game, I wouldn't blame the officials for using language. I just felt that he wasn't his normal excellent self. How Fernandinio didn't see at least yellow in the game was baffling.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: GameDay2021 on Wed 05 May 2021 20:38
All i will say is why is it ok for players to swear at refs when the ref can't to them. Like seriously, grow up
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Microscopist on Wed 05 May 2021 20:47
In fairness now the way PSG carried on at stages of the game, I wouldn't blame the officials for using language. I just felt that he wasn't his normal excellent self. How Fernandinio didn't see at least yellow in the game was baffling.
Fancy him not getting a card on his birthday!
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: bmb on Wed 05 May 2021 22:39
All i will say is why is it ok for players to swear at refs when the ref can't to them. Like seriously, grow up

I agree but we are meant to hold ourselves to higher standards than the players.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Ashington46 on Wed 05 May 2021 23:21
All i will say is why is it ok for players to swear at refs when the ref can't to them. Like seriously, grow up

I agree but we are meant to hold ourselves to higher standards than the players.

As I said before, it should be a case of what happens or is said on  the field should remain on the field. The only exception I would make is if a racist remark is made then it should be followed up, however, language between players and officials -----they are complaining about something which you will hear on any street in the UK, the Netherlands, France or wherever and often said by children, never mind football players or officials.

I agree that officials are meant to hold to higher standards than players, however, officials are not saints and the way that PSG players were acting last night, I think that Meneer Kuipers was very restrained if that was all he said. I wonder if he said it in the Dutch language?
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: RefObserver on Thu 06 May 2021 09:05
Reading that PSG are demanding a UEFA investigation because they allege that the referee used foul and abusive language to two of their players.
What happened to the idea that what happens on the field stays on the field?

I suppose that they will be putting this all over social media before we know where we are, even if only to make up for the blank out over the weekend.
What the heck is happening to football at this level? It is like squabbling schoolchildren.


What delicate little flowers the players of PSG are; or more likely just very sore losers. Don't know about Kuipers' language, they should have come across Gordon Hill or John Key in their pomp.

Or Dave Axcell!

I'm no prude but he made a few comments that even surprised me at times.
Great company though........
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: DublinRef on Thu 06 May 2021 09:37
I find it fascinating how opinions can vary over a referee's performance.  Descriptions have varied from very poor to outstanding and excellent.
DublinRef offered "not a disaster" but "one of his poorer performances".  Is "disappointing" a suitable adjective?  For my part, I would label it "decent" but by no means perfect - and not just because of the handball errors.

One point from DublinRef's post I would highlight is:
"This is the great challenge of refereeing high difficulty matches at the very top level and while Kuipers didn't ever let the game get totally out of control, his poor anticipation of the rising tension in the middle stage of the game, backed him into a corner towards the end".

An excellent comment and highlighting again his earlier point whether the referee's prime role in this sort of game is to strictly apply the Laws or to seek to manage proceedings for the greater good of the game.  A dilemma referees like Graham Poll and Mark Clattenburg faced in the PL on occasions in the past, not always answered successfully some would argue.   

Not seen any view from Halsey or Hackett yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Kuiper's performance didn't split opinion among our current SG1 referees. 

A good debate though and contributions appreciated.

Thank you, Ref Fan, for your kind remarks about my post. I think you make an interesting point, on this website and another I have seen very differing opinions on Mr.Kuiper's performance. I guess it comes down to what type of performance you are looking for from a referee, taking a broad view Kuipers kept the game under control, kept as many players on the pitch as possible and didn't get overly involved. On a more technical level one could find many mistakes but I suggest that from a broader perspective one could assess the performance as satisfactory.

Indeed it would be very interesting to see how UEFA assess this performance. For me the mistakes on a technical level and even in terms of IMO under punishing some serious fouls cannot be ignored in view of the overall outcome. I am looking forward to seeing the style of refereeing at the upcoming EURO, in tournament football I always think we get a better idea of the current refereeing philosophy UEFA want applied.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Wollongong Ref on Thu 06 May 2021 12:07
This bugs me every time it happens. Now I was not out on the pitch but I would bet a pint (schooner in Wollongong) that players have told Kuipers to F@#$ off during this game. Yet when the referee controls the game by not going to cards to keep players on the field they complain. Same happened to Stuart Dougal in Scotland.
Title: Re: Bjorn Kuipers - Man City v PSG
Post by: Microscopist on Thu 06 May 2021 16:19
This bugs me every time it happens. Now I was not out on the pitch but I would bet a pint (schooner in Wollongong) that players have told Kuipers to F@#$ off during this game. Yet when the referee controls the game by not going to cards to keep players on the field they complain. Same happened to Stuart Dougal in Scotland.
One can only hope that Pochettino's pitch invasion will have been noted and sanctions will follow.