RateTheRef
General Refereeing => General Discussion => Topic started by: Readingfan on Thu 11 Jun 2020 09:53
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A piece from the Daily Mail noting that no referee on the National List (out of 79 in total) this season is from a BAME background and speaking to the last black Premier League referee, Uriah Rennie, who retired 12 years ago - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8407859/Uriah-Rennie-pleads-action-increase-diversity-football-officials.html
I have wondered about this before. What is with this lack of diversity? Are the FA failing to reach people of certain backgrounds/communities initially and so non-white males are less likely to begin refereeing in the first place? Or do they not get the opportunities for promotion? Does there need to be more diversity in terms of those in authority so that there is increased consideration as to how to attract wider demographics to refereeing and harness their development when they get there?
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Cannot talk about all BAME referees in the UK, but there a couple in the manchester area who are on their way up!
I once knew a referee who was originally from Pakistan but grew up here. He had been a referee for over 40 years. He said to me once that he still got terrible racism at some games.
I also know a black guy. I hadn’t seen him for about 4 years and he said he left the game due to the terrible racism he was getting at matches - and only now had the confidence to make a comeback!
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I’ve just read that article and I wasn’t aware of the furore Lord Elleray created in 2014.
I do hope that Akil Howson is on the road to at least SG1 AR. He’s always been a steady assistant and deserves a chance at the top.
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From personal experience my son gave up refereeing due to horrendous racial abuse. Not from anyone within the game itself, he had tremendous support from Andre Marriner, Mark Clattenburg, Lucy Oliver, Viktor Kassai, György Ring & Gábor Erős in particular but also from Chris Wild at UEFA and dare I say it Lord Elleray! The National list referees he met over the years all spent time talking to him, advising him, discussing decisions with him, answering all his questions and guiding him. Many left games late due to sitting with him afterwards and giving him all the time he wanted and needed. The abuse came from the crowd at 2 different games, the coaches from the teams in the games stepped in with parents of the children playing to let those responsible know their behaviour was completely unacceptable and I have a lot of respect for them for their support as well but those few idiots in the crowd completely shattered my little boy's confidence. Not just with refereeing either, with life in general, it affected his schooling in a very detrimental way. Troy Townsend did a lot of work with him on a 1:1 basis and Andre, Mark & Viktor were very active in their support, it took a year before that boy even smiled again. He won't even go to a football match anymore, let alone referee a game. The thing that always struck me with the situation with my lad was when he sat there crying his eyes out and said "Mum if they said I was a s**t referee I'd not mind that, I make mistakes, I'm learning, it's ok to make mistakes and it's ok for them to disagree with my decisions but why hate me for my skin colour, I don't understand, I can't understand why it makes a difference". Who knows whether he would have gone on & been a FIFA referee or not, certainly several at high levels of the game were tracking him because they saw a real talent in him especially actually as an AR, he may well never have got above Sunday league level but we will never know because some idiots took it away from him over his skin colour.
His is not an isolated case. I suspect, but don't know for fact, there are many youngsters from the BAME communities who simply don't take up the whistle or remain with it for similar reasons. I think you tend to hear more incidents within those communities than if you are not living within them yourselves. I know it's not the only form of abuse & there are other young refs out there getting abuse for their bright ginger hair, for having a bit of puppy fat on them, for being too skinny, knock kneed or whatever else people can find to make fun of & bully them for. Add in any disability, homophobia and sexism for the full sweep, all just as appalling to me. There's a reason there are no openly gay referees (and players) in the top flight - homophobic abuse. I mean this no way disrespectfully & I know no-one would take it as such but it is a lot easier to hide being gay than it is to hide skin colour so a gay referee or player can 'bypass' the abuse by remaining in the closet. That is so wrong. Not that they can make it but that they have to hide it away. Ryan T Atkin was incredibly brave to come out, but he shouldn't have had to be brave to do so. It shouldn't even be an issue in 2020 yet here it is still an issue. How depressing is that?
Racism in football has come a long way but there is still a long way to go. Ian Wright was subjected to some horrendous racist abuse just a couple of weeks ago. Raheem Sterling is a very high profile target of racial abuse on a regular basis, as are other top non white players, he is not alone. All the time there are people willing to abuse the top players, and those around who do not stop them, you can imagine the levels of abuse that will come the way of the least popular person on the pitch. I imagine it could put many off wanting to reach those levels of the game!
I don't know if there is institutional racism within the FA itself, I would hope not. I know of 1 referee who says he would have made the FIFA list if only he was white, well I've seen him referee, several times & him not making the FIFA list is nothing to do with the colour of his skin but more to do with his lack of ability as a referee! That sort of thing is also a problem, those who will wrongly play the race card because they won't accept it's a lack of talent or ability on their own part and nothing to do with race. They set diversity back as much as the racists do.
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bmb ----a very interesting and very sad read in relation to your son, I sincerely hope that he is feeling confident again and able to get on with his life.
Sadly, this problem is not going away and has been prevalent in the game for a long, long time.
When I played in the Middlesex area in the late 70s and 80s there were a number of teams of differing races and I used to cringe at some of the things which were said to them and the names that they were called. Regardless of this, they continued in the league and I admired them for it because they really just wnated to play competitive football.
The one referee I knew of BAME origin in those days was also subjected to lots of abuse and it led to his giving up in the end and he was very disappointed.
I am talking almost 50 years ago and, although it could be argued that things have got better, it is very sad to read bad reports from all over the country.
You question whether or not the FA is institutionally racist and I don't know the answer, however, in the end, everything comes down to the actions of every individual, sadly, we have no control over their mind and consequently there is no easy answer to a very complex problem, even in these more enlightened times ---or so they tell me! Very sad indeed.
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bmb ----a very interesting and very sad read in relation to your son, I sincerely hope that he is feeling confident again and able to get on with his life.
He is getting on with his life now yes, thank you for checking. One day he had boys talk with both Mark & Andre, I don't know what was said, I'm a girl so it was none of my business and the 3 of them completely excluded me from their talk but the following week he went into school and came home all excited telling me that he had been made an anti bullying coordinator. Whatever they said to him finally hit home with him & he realised he could make a difference to other kids lives as well as his own. He really threw himself into it, making safe zones for bullied kids within the school, being available as a mentor to them, getting other kids involved in anti bullying programs, with I hasten to add some fantastic support from his head teacher & the other teachers at his school. He started to tutor younger kids in both Spanish and French, his strongest subjects and grew into a very strong, inspirational young man. He officially leaves school this summer & is awaiting his allocated A'Level results so that he knows which university he will be attending from September (one he has a conditional offer of 2A's & a B, the other unconditional). He wants to be a science teacher and work with children, in particular, ones with special needs and/or who are vulnerable. I think he will be rather ace at it myself, he's taken that experience & turned into a positive way for him to make a difference. Yep Im a proud Mum!
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You question whether or not the FA is institutionally racist and I don't know the answer, however, in the end, everything comes down to the actions of every individual, sadly, we have no control over their mind and consequently there is no easy answer to a very complex problem, even in these more enlightened times ---or so they tell me! Very sad indeed.
Without wanting to get into a political debate with anyone regarding the rights/wrongs of the recent BLM protests & things like the statues issues that have arisen, as a result of them... the main thing that I noticed was how many white kids (especially the 16-24 age group) also attended the protests in support of an equality for all message. There were also several key black role models saying that the knife crime has to stop because it fuels an anti attitude. In that respect it felt different to protests in the past from various eras and maybe just maybe these youngsters will continue to unite in a positive way and be the ones to finally start to rid our world of the scourge that is discrimination. Seeing so many youngsters standing together to fight inequality regardless of race/religion/ability etc gave me some hope for the future.
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I think this was the only other high profile case involving the FA
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2001/dec/06/newsstory.sport4
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I think this was the only other high profile case involving the FA
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2001/dec/06/newsstory.sport4
I remember that! I would hope things have moved on in the 15 years since but who knows!
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Apologies if this comes across as anything other than a genuine question , but how come the PL are allowing Black Lives Matter on their shirts instead of their names yet they wasn’t allowed to have poppies on their shirts surely this is double standards
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Apologies if this comes across as anything other than a genuine question , but how come the PL are allowing Black Lives Matter on their shirts instead of their names yet they wasn’t allowed to have poppies on their shirts surely this is double standards
If my memory is correct, the clubs are allowed to have poppies on their shirts in the PL and EFL and this has continued for about 7 years.
It was FIFA who deemed that they would not be allowed on the England shirt in any matches becasue they consider that it is a political symbol. Again, if memory servees me correctly, they wore armbands with the poppy on them.
Of course, my memory could be playing tricks ---it's my age!
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Apologies if this comes across as anything other than a genuine question , but how come the PL are allowing Black Lives Matter on their shirts instead of their names yet they wasn’t allowed to have poppies on their shirts surely this is double standards
If my memory is correct, the clubs are allowed to have poppies on their shirts in the PL and EFL and this has continued for about 7 years.
It was FIFA who deemed that they would not be allowed on the England shirt in any matches becasue they consider that it is a political symbol. Again, if memory servees me correctly, they wore armbands with the poppy on them.
Of course, my memory could be playing tricks ---it's my age!
Correct!
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Apologies if this comes across as anything other than a genuine question , but how come the PL are allowing Black Lives Matter on their shirts instead of their names yet they wasn’t allowed to have poppies on their shirts surely this is double standards
If my memory is correct, the clubs are allowed to have poppies on their shirts in the PL and EFL and this has continued for about 7 years.
It was FIFA who deemed that they would not be allowed on the England shirt in any matches becasue they consider that it is a political symbol. Again, if memory servees me correctly, they wore armbands with the poppy on them.
Of course, my memory could be playing tricks ---it's my age!
Correct!
The referees certainly have poppies on their shirts as well. I have a couple of them here.
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Apologies for linking to the s*n but there is an article in there on Bhups and Sunny Gill
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/11865588/bame-referees-sunny-bhups-gill-jarnail-singh/
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Apologies for linking to the s*n but there is an article in there on Bhups and Sunny Gill
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/11865588/bame-referees-sunny-bhups-gill-jarnail-singh/
It is an interesting article and reflected what I said earlier about the silly things happening around that area of north west London from the late 70s onwards. It is also interesting to read the thoughts on whether or not parents are discouraging their children from getting involved in football.
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institutionalised racism often takes subtle forms and we can't rule out its existence within refereeing. There may not be overt discrimination or hostility but BAME referees may find that they are not welcomed into the same networks as white officials. Often links of these kinds are very important in influencing promotion and retention. This is unlikely to be any formal type of "rejection" but more that the networks within refereeing are more likely to reach out to white referees. It's also possible that when decisions on promotion are made decision-makers have unconscious stereotypes of who "fits the bill" and white referees fit more within that stereotype. The existence of such stereotypes though is hard to prove an decision-makers may be quite unaware of them. Stereotypes of this kind may also work against female and gay referees and others as well.
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You have a very good point Left Field. I read a very interesting thread on Twitter from a guy working in IT. He'd been taken on by a company a few years ago to help grow it and had done a huge presentation on his suggestions, following which the owner of the company took him into the office and asked what the one thing he had missed was. He said he could see nothing wrong & finally the owner told him that there was not a single BAME employee at the company. The guy said how embarrassed he was to have not even noticed and at that point realised how easy it is to just accept the status quo and whilst you can react to an overt display of racism & say not acceptable you can also not see beyond the surface when there is nothing overt alerting you. Was a very good thread actually and similar to the point you have just made.
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Allied to your point bmb there is a strong tendency in almost all jobs and activities for the workforce or membership to in effect reproduce itself. Employers or recruiters tend to engage and promote people much like themselves and their existing membership; the same is likely to be true in refereeing so it is hard for the membership of referees to change much in terms of class, ethnicity, gender and sexuality. Overt exclusion need not occur for this to happen but it is easier for individuals to get on if they are similar to existing members. There may also be expectations in terms of personality and "clubability" so those referees who socialise with each other, attend official events and are popular with their peers and their hierarchy may be more likely to make progress than those who prefer either to "keep themselves to themselves" or even take a more individualistic line. Conformity is strongly favoured in most walks of life and those who do not conform - even if they are very talented - find their progress limited.
Individuals who belong to any kind of minority within an activity can lead a lonely life, even if no-one actively creates difficulties for them. You don't have to be rejected to feel that you aren't embraced and are not fully valued. This becomes self-perpetuating but it can be broken down. Fifty years ago there were very few BAME players but that has completely transformed; however there are still very few BAME managers and coaches and even fewer who are in positions of authority on decision-making bodies in the game. Aside from playing, BAME individuals remain very unrepresented in many areas of the game including refereeing. If more do reach these positions many more follow but the greatest need is to create that genuinely inclusive background and for recruiters to be more active in diversifying their membership / workforce.
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Re-found thee thread I mentioned:
https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1272811455943933955
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I remember a conversation with a friend of mine who confided that he was convinced he'd moved higher up the refereeing pyramid than he thought he should, and that he thought his surname might have helped him along the way.
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I think this was the only other high profile case involving the FA
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2001/dec/06/newsstory.sport4
I remember that! I would hope things have moved on in the 15 years since but who knows!
I'm sorry but the suggestion that Gurnam Singh would have been anywhere near, let alone at, the top of a Referees' Performance List is stretching my incredulity just a bit too far.
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Apologies for linking to the s*n but there is an article in there on Bhups and Sunny Gill
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/11865588/bame-referees-sunny-bhups-gill-jarnail-singh/
Good to see more BAME referees coming through the system. I know that when I was refereeing many years ago there was not a single one in my RA or anywhere near it. There were a couple of Italian referees at that time and they used to get enough stick on the field so it was hardly surprising.
Good luck to the Gill brothers, although having seen their father referee a few times over the years I trust he will not be their role model. ;)
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There's a reason there are no openly gay referees (and players) in the top flight - homophobic abuse. I mean this no way disrespectfully & I know no-one would take it as such but it is a lot easier to hide being gay than it is to hide skin colour so a gay referee or player can 'bypass' the abuse by remaining in the closet. That is so wrong. Not that they can make it but that they have to hide it away. Ryan T Atkin was incredibly brave to come out, but he shouldn't have had to be brave to do so. It shouldn't even be an issue in 2020 yet here it is still an issue. How depressing is that?
In the words of an ex professional football who has just come out as being gay
"Being gay and having a career in football never felt like an option. Society told me my masculinity was linked to my sexuality -- something we of course know is a false assumption -- but I felt as if I couldn't be a footballer and accept who I was. Everything around me suggested these two worlds were pure enemies, and I had to sacrifice one in order to survive. It doesn't feel that way in other industries. In music, we love Freddie Mercury and Elton John. It's accepted in film. Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, is gay, and these things are all OK.
But in football, there's still fear a gay teammate might disrupt the team environment. Sometimes it's brushed away, like homophobia isn't an issue in football anymore. Obviously that's not true if there are so few examples young kids can look to as role models.
I have heard gay slurs fly around in changing rooms and on the pitch. I mean, one of the worst things you can say to someone in a sporting environment is: "You're so gay." These words and these phrases are ingrained in parts of society."
https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-espn-fc-united/story/4116107/my-hidden-journey-a-professional-soccer-player-reveals-he-is-gay?platform=amp
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Interesting read and it is very sad that he has had to virtually hide his true feeling for such a long time just so that he could do the job he wanted.
This is still a very grey area in the football world and also in quite a number of sports.
There is no easy answer because there will always be those people around who will be homophobic, just as there will always be those around who are racist. It is certainly easier for many people to be themselves than it is for those like Thomas Beattie.
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For those that didn’t see it, Jarnail Singh and his sons were also the subject of a BBC article a couple of days ago.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/53347268
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Football League set for first black referee since Uriah Rennie
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/in-between-team-newcastle-falcons-face-eight-month-off-season-6ngd6czn2
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It’s certainly about time we had a FL ref from a BAME background - you can’t tell me the top 70 or so refs in this country are all white!
However, I’ll wait until this is confirmed by the EFL before congratulating Sam. The press recently said Jarred Gillett would get a PL game towards the end of the season and they were wrong about that.
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Did Trevor Parkes leave the List before Uriah Rennie? I thought it might have been the other way round and Upton doesn't list as late as that. Parkes, like Allison,
was a Firefighter. Parkes also had the most tremendous sense of fun.
I have seen Allison referee once and he gave a calm, focussed and very creditable performance.
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Did Trevor Parkes leave the List before Uriah Rennie? I thought it might have been the other way round and Upton doesn't list as late as that. Parkes, like Allison,
was a Firefighter. Parkes also had the most tremendous sense of fun.
I have seen Allison referee once and he gave a calm, focussed and very creditable performance.
Trevor Parkes was one of the best FL refs I saw at his numerous Rochdale games. Surprised he never went higher.
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I have seen Allison referee once and he gave a calm, focussed and very creditable performance.
From February 2017:
"Mr Allison's distinctive feature is what Michel Quoist in one of his more eccentric prayers described as "a fine dome," though it does not quite match Uriah Rennie's for the brilliance of its sheen. That apart, he went about his business in an unspectacular manner. Indeed, if we except the good movement, his alertness to both possible flashpoints and timewasting tactics, his excellent use of words in the ear on the hoof, his appropriate use of cards, his generally sound decision-making (hoppers' views discounted) and the way he appeared comfortable throughout in his control, then there is nothing special to enthuse over. It would be a very harsh observer, however, who was not happy with that particular list of accomplishments.
At this stage of the competition last year, Mr Allison was assistant at Hereford to a first-season 2A who was the only one of the four Q-F referees to be promoted to Level 1. Now 2A himself, he might tempt one to wonder whether history might repeat itself. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility on this showing."
I would be more than happy to see him promoted, though as Mackem says, it is still paper talk. There are however many referees among the 2A brigade whom I have seen put in excellent performances, so competition is very tight.
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Trevor Parkes was (and I guess would still be) a lovely, relaxed man, very naughty sense of humour and a pleasure to be around.
Joe Ross similarly was a lovely guy, just not as good with the whistle. Another who IMHO was better with the flag.
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It’s certainly about time we had a FL ref from a BAME background - you can’t tell me the top 70 or so refs in this country are all white!
However, I’ll wait until this is confirmed by the EFL before congratulating Sam. The press recently said Jarred Gillett would get a PL game towards the end of the season and they were wrong about that.
I concur with your statement. If its untrue, it would be even bigger news. If correct, congratulations to him. I hope he is/will be promoted because of his performance position rather than "expectation" due to obvious climate we are in.
Let's talk about race.
"you can’t tell me the top 70 or so refs in this country are all white!" - Statistically, it shows that is the "truth" but you're absolutely correct to be sceptical. From experience, any BAME Referee that goes beyond Supply Leagues without giving up officiating due to racism has got a thick skin. 99.99999% of racism by clubs, players, coaches, club administrators, etc do NOT get reported. If reported or even any suggestion of being reported, there is a backlash awaits by the other clubs, players, coaches because you reported their mates. In short, the Referee have zero chance of being promoted because 50% of your marks belongs to the clubs.
If you think this statement is inaccurate, just approach a BAME Referee, ask him/her a private unofficial question and request a honest answer.
Until real change happens, you will continue to see only 1 or 2 breakthrough amongst hundredths every decade.
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Did Trevor Parkes leave the List before Uriah Rennie? I thought it might have been the other way round and Upton doesn't list as late as that. Parkes, like Allison,
was a Firefighter. Parkes also had the most tremendous sense of fun.
I have seen Allison referee once and he gave a calm, focussed and very creditable performance.
I found some of his decisions hilarious. Didn't see too many good performances from him , to be honest.
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Did Trevor Parkes leave the List before Uriah Rennie? I thought it might have been the other way round and Upton doesn't list as late as that. Parkes, like Allison,
was a Firefighter. Parkes also had the most tremendous sense of fun.
I have seen Allison referee once and he gave a calm, focussed and very creditable performance.
Trevor Parkes came off the list at the end of the 2005/6 season, whilst Uriah Rennie followed two years later at the end of the 2007/8 season. So Uriah is the last BAME ref on the list.
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Did Trevor Parkes leave the List before Uriah Rennie? I thought it might have been the other way round and Upton doesn't list as late as that. Parkes, like Allison,
was a Firefighter. Parkes also had the most tremendous sense of fun.
I have seen Allison referee once and he gave a calm, focussed and very creditable performance.
Trevor Parkes came off the list at the end of the 2005/6 season, whilst Uriah Rennie followed two years later at the end of the 2007/8 season. So Uriah is the last BAME ref on the list.
Black, yes. BAME, no. Singh left the list in 2010.
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Did Trevor Parkes leave the List before Uriah Rennie? I thought it might have been the other way round and Upton doesn't list as late as that. Parkes, like Allison,
was a Firefighter. Parkes also had the most tremendous sense of fun.
I have seen Allison referee once and he gave a calm, focussed and very creditable performance.
Trevor Parkes came off the list at the end of the 2005/6 season, whilst Uriah Rennie followed two years later at the end of the 2007/8 season. So Uriah is the last BAME ref on the list.
Black, yes. BAME, no. Singh left the list in 2010.
Thanks, my mistake.
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Just in case anyone wondered why we don't have any openly gay footballers or referees...
https://twitter.com/brfootball/status/1296550769215365121
Too many replies show the 'football culture' is still well and truly stuck in the dark ages!
Personally I don't like either kit - yellow & pink is my worst nightmare! I like the concept though!!