Author Topic: Who was the referee? Appeals for information  (Read 3331 times)

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Left Field

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Thanks for the answers so far. Even if the referee remains a mystery the home ground and the opponents seems clearer. I find it odd that Norwich would have had red seats in their stand when clubs would usually colour-coordinate with their playing colours but maybe that's a more recent innovation. If the opponents were Colchester it would seem odd for them to be playing at Norwich if it's a friendly but perhaps it was some sort of pre-season Cup competition, maybe for East Anglian clubs?

Finally maybe it's just my impression but it seems that everyone except the referee seems to be disgruntled / disillusioned or simply confused. "What are we doing here?" seems to be the message. Perhaps not a match to fire the enthusiasm?
« Last Edit: Mon 17 Sep 2018 10:07 by Left Field »

JohnCoyle

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A picture below from 1980. Norwich are clearly one of the teams but who are the opponents and the referee?

(Attachment Link)

The referee does have a familiar look about him. The game might be a pre-season friendly which could explain the thin attendance. I wondered if the opponents might be Colchester (similar strip) but the stadium with its red seats doesn't fit either team.
I can't help with the ref but this picture appears on the front of a programme on ebay for the Norwich v Shrewsbury League Cup tie 2nd rd 2nd leg, played at Carrow Road on 3rd Sept 1980. I think it can be assumed that the picture was taken before the start of the 1st leg tie played on 26th Aug 1980 which might explain the paucity of the crowd and the red seats. A West Midlands ref such as Civil or Hamil (but not Seville) could fit the profile but no idea who.


It's 100% not Shrewsbury. I think it's definitely Colchester, given their home kit in 1980/81 looked like that pictured: http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Colchester_United/Colchester_United.htm

And also, the ground pictured isn't Gay Meadow!

In those days, programme covers were printed in bulk and that same cover was also used for the Norwich v Stoke game on the opening day of the 1980/81 season (look it up on Ebay).

More likely, the image is from a pre-season friendly between Norwich and Colchester, which means the referee is likely to have been fairly local to Norfolk/East Anglia.

I've asked my Norwich mate whether Carrow Road had red seats at the time.

EDIT: Just had confirmation that the South Stand at Carrow Road once had red seats, so that's where it is.

Yep, and I'll guess at Steve Wignall, a subsequent very poor manager at Southend, for the player.

He was a poor manager at Doncaster as well!

Left Field

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Here is a new picture from a Brighton game in 1984 - opponents unknown. The referee might be Les Burden of Dorset but I'm not wholly convinced:

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Whistleblower

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Could be. Hard to think who else it might be. Gilbert Napthine perhaps but I'm far from convinced about that.

Acme Thunderer

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I would put Mrs AT's housekeeping money on Colin Downey of Hounslow  ;D

Whistleblower

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I would put Mrs AT's housekeeping money on Colin Downey of Hounslow  ;D

Yes of course it is. Mrs A T's account at Fortnum and Mason is happily secure for now  :P

Acme Thunderer

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Phew, thank goodness for that! Mrs AT was out at the time, and the thought that I was going to have to tell her that she could no longer shop at Poundland was already giving me palpitations! The fresh-faced features suggested Colin and I'm glad I was right, thanks Whistleblower 

nemesis

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Indeed. The same Colin Downey who, from the line, awarded Man Utd a questionable penalty against Brighton in the Cup Final (replay) just a year earlier. Some things never change.

Whistleblower

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Indeed. The same Colin Downey who, from the line, awarded Man Utd a questionable penalty against Brighton in the Cup Final (replay) just a year earlier. Some things never change.

Questionable indeed m'learned friend but not, as I remember, conclusively wrong. It was a match I attended, one of only two occasions when I have been live at an FA Cup Final.

And while we communicate. I haven't yet managed to get to Portman Road this season. Is it really a case of " abandon hope all ye who enter here " or is there any, even the faintest, cause to believe the position might yet improve ?

nemesis

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Indeed. The same Colin Downey who, from the line, awarded Man Utd a questionable penalty against Brighton in the Cup Final (replay) just a year earlier. Some things never change.

Questionable indeed m'learned friend but not, as I remember, conclusively wrong. It was a match I attended, one of only two occasions when I have been live at an FA Cup Final.

And while we communicate. I haven't yet managed to get to Portman Road this season. Is it really a case of " abandon hope all ye who enter here " or is there any, even the faintest, cause to believe the position might yet improve ?

Apologies for a late response but I was waiting until after yesterday's game not wanting to give a hostage to fortune. If replying earlier, I might have said "unbeaten at home and all four games have been reasonably entertaining, at least in part."  Yesterday was very disappointing and concern is growing. The players bought in are not as good as the players let go. The loanees brought in are (Pennington excepted) nowhere near as good as last year's loanees and the manager seems to have a bewildering preference for Gerken over the last three seasons' player of the year.  So rather worrying. - a League One manager has brought in lots of League One players who look short of the quality needed to survive, let alone prosper, in the Championship. Perhaps they are planning for next year.

Whistleblower

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Thank you m'learned friend. Your analysis is rather what I expected and your last sentence is chilling and I fear somewhat prophetic.

Acme Thunderer

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Stott and Hayward in particular must have felt aggrieved since they came from areas which produced top FL refs (Tinkler and Nippard) at about the same time.

Not one on your list, but mutn3's very good book on Old Nottinghamshire FL Referees mentions J (Jimmy) R Dunbar from Stapleford, a supplementary ref for two seasons from 1951 to 1953:-

"Everything seemed to be going well. In his second season on the Supplementary List, he was appointed to referee Arsenal v Blackpool in the FA Cup Quarter Final at Highbury, with over 69,000 spectators. Jimmy believed an assistant wasn't having the best of games, and when that assistant beckoned him over Jimmy feared the worse. Joe Mercer, the former England wartime captain, and now coming to the end of his career, had sworn at the assistant.
Jimmy decided, wisely or otherwise, just to issue a booking and felt that he had managed a tricky situation well. The end of the season came and Jimmy was shocked to be removed from the list, the only game he could think of that had jeopardised his role was the altercation with Mercer!"

Another short term ref who dropped off the list after refereeing a top game (as happened in those days) was J W J Clarke from Studley in Warwickshire. He refereed Man Utd v Sunderland in May 1968 at the end of his 2nd season on the list when Man Utd could have won the League title if they had won and Man City had lost at Newcastle. United lost and City won and Mr Clarke came off the list immediately after the game. The suggestion (a while back on ISOR) was that the Man Utd Chairman influenced the decision to have Clarke removed from the list but I don't think this can be confirmed.

Acme Thunderer

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Stott and Hayward in particular must have felt aggrieved since they came from areas which produced top FL refs (Tinkler and Nippard) at about the same time.

Not one on your list, but mutn3's very good book on Old Nottinghamshire FL Referees mentions J (Jimmy) R Dunbar from Stapleford, a supplementary ref for two seasons from 1951 to 1953:-

"Everything seemed to be going well. In his second season on the Supplementary List, he was appointed to referee Arsenal v Blackpool in the FA Cup Quarter Final at Highbury, with over 69,000 spectators. Jimmy believed an assistant wasn't having the best of games, and when that assistant beckoned him over Jimmy feared the worse. Joe Mercer, the former England wartime captain, and now coming to the end of his career, had sworn at the assistant.
Jimmy decided, wisely or otherwise, just to issue a booking and felt that he had managed a tricky situation well. The end of the season came and Jimmy was shocked to be removed from the list, the only game he could think of that had jeopardised his role was the altercation with Mercer!"

Another short term ref who dropped off the list after refereeing a top game (as happened in those days) was J W J Clarke from Studley in Warwickshire. He refereed Man Utd v Sunderland in May 1968 at the end of his 2nd season on the list when Man Utd could have won the League title if they had won and Man City had lost at Newcastle. United lost and City won and Mr Clarke came off the list immediately after the game. The suggestion (a while back on ISOR) was that the Man Utd Chairman influenced the decision to have Clarke removed from the list but I don't think this can be confirmed.

Edit: sorry Whistleblower but I appear to have deleted our previous posts re Bone, Ellis, Fieldsend, Stott and Hayward...... Not sure how I've been able to do this but could you repost. Or Admin, could you help please. Still trying to get to grips with the admirable new system. Mea Culpa x 100!
« Last Edit: Mon 24 Sep 2018 09:33 by Acme Thunderer »

Whistleblower

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Don't worry about deleting my post. I' mafraid I have no back-up for it so can't post again.

It is now incredible to think that someone in their second year on the Supplementary List should be appointed to a FA Cup Quarter Final. Clearly Mr Dunbar must have been impressing the Appointing Powers very much which makes it all the more strange that he should have been dropped from the List

Whistleblower

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My original post has been re-posted I notice under Name the referee thread.

Am I alone in finding it confusing have two threads running 'Who was the referee?' and 'Name the referee'.  I wonder if the threads could be merged?