Author Topic: Who was the referee? Appeals for information  (Read 3331 times)

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Left Field

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On the subject of Arthur Jones here is an article from 1977 as he approached retirement. As well as looking back on his career it also points to much that has changed in refereeing, particularly at the top level.

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Whistleblower

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Thank you for posting this Left Field, I found it to be a very interesting read. I'm surprised A W S doesn't mention his running the line in a European Cup Final ( to Pat Partridge, Ken Burns being the other linesman ) but perhaps that came right at the end of his career and the appointment hadn't been made when he gave this interview.

Acme Thunderer

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It's certainly a mystery. I think the picture may be mis-captioned in the Fulham programme and is actually from a game v Orient - an opponent can be partially seen in the background and the trim on the kit (particularly the socks) seems to fit Orient more than Chelsea. Even if it is versus Orient that doesn't help much as the clubs played each other three times at Craven Cottage in various competitions that month! None of the billed referees for those games or the one versus Chelsea seems to resemble this man. Darryl Reeves seems more likely but I'm not convinced about him either. If it's not him or any of the listed referees I don't know who it could be.

The three refs for the Fulham v Orient games are shown as Alan Robinson, Ray Lewis and Mike Taylor, and I would agree that the guy pictured is none of these. As you say, a bit of a mystery. The game refereed by Ray Lewis had Surrey linesmen John Kensett from Croydon and Derek Simmons from Oxted. Both great guys and good to see their names mentioned after so many years. 

Grahamexref

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Slightly off topic, but mention of Ray Lewis (from Great Bookham, wonderful domecile for a ref) evokes great memories. Besides achieving FIFA status, Ray had the unenviable distinction of refereeing three FACSFs, in 1987, 1989 (Hillsboro') and 1991 without ever being appointed to an FACF, although he was appointed to a LCF. 
An extremely capable referee, a wonderful racanteur,  whom I had the great pleasure to meet on several occasions during his distinguished career.

reflector

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Slightly off topic, but mention of Ray Lewis (from Great Bookham, wonderful domecile for a ref) evokes great memories. Besides achieving FIFA status, Ray had the unenviable distinction of refereeing three FACSFs, in 1987, 1989 (Hillsboro') and 1991 without ever being appointed to an FACF, although he was appointed to a LCF. 
An extremely capable referee, a wonderful racanteur,  whom I had the great pleasure to meet on several occasions during his distinguished career.
Strange he never got the Final.  I wonder if there are any other refs who were appointed to three FA Cup Semis without getting the Final.
reflector

Whistleblower

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It was very generally thought that Ray Lewis would be awarded the FA Cup Final in 1991. However, there was talk of a marked split in the FA Committee which doled out these honours between those supporting Lewis and another referee who I heard was Martin Bodenham and so they compromised on the rather "alternative" choice of Roger Milford, who of course did not exactly distinguish himself in the Final. The world of senior refereeing is awash with rumours but I heard this from more than one source but who knows if it's entirely accurate. Interestingly though, both Lewis and Bodenham were very senior FIFA referees and neither ever got the FA Cup Final  though both were awarded the League Cup Final; Lewis in 1991 and Bodenham in 1997

Left Field

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It was very generally thought that Ray Lewis would be awarded the FA Cup Final in 1991. However, there was talk of a marked split in the FA Committee which doled out these honours between those supporting Lewis and another referee who I heard was Martin Bodenham and so they compromised on the rather "alternative" choice of Roger Milford, who of course did not exactly distinguish himself in the Final. The world of senior refereeing is awash with rumours but I heard this from more than one source but who knows if it's entirely accurate. Interestingly though, both Lewis and Bodenham were very senior FIFA referees and neither ever got the FA Cup Final  though both were awarded the League Cup Final; Lewis in 1991 and Bodenham in 1997

While Ray Lewis would seem an obvious contender for the 1991 FA Cup Final (at least before he had been appointed to the League Cup Final a few weeks earlier) I would be very surprised if Martin Bodenham had been in the frame as he wasn't an international referee at the time and his appointments were above-average but not spectacular. It may have been a case of one person throwing his name into the ring rather than him being strongly considered. Roger Milford was a very popular choice at the time within the wider footballing fraternity where he seemed to be many players and fans' favourite referee, not unlike Gordon Hill twenty years earlier. How he was regarded among other referees I'm not sure and alas Rate the Ref was not around at the time to get that sort of indication. As it turned out his errors in that Final have perhaps coloured views of his overall refereeing.

Martin Bodenham's ascent started strongly the following season when he was one of those who rose to FIFA status as the new age limits curtailed the international careers of officials such as Ray Lewis. Those age limits opened doors for some and closed them for others - as can be true of raising or abandoning them as well.

Whistleblower

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Roger Milford certainly cultivated a certain reputation for himself as being slightly anti-establishment. All the more surprising perhaps that he was awarded the FA Cup Final; neither was he a FIFA referee. I suspect Milford divided opinion among fellow referees with more than a few thinking his self-promotion and somewhat idiosyncratic style of officiating didn't exactly make for good colleague relationships. I have heard it said that Linesmen were sharply divided about officiating with him. For some he was their favourite referee with whom to work while for others, a bete-noir would be more accurate.

Acme Thunderer

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An interesting article on Arthur Jones, thanks LF. A few points:

- like Eric Garner, Arthur rued not being able to referee the Mersey derby. However, to my mind, the Mersey derby was the one League game that Arthur (and Eric) could have refereed as local refs, assuming they didn't support either side. Arthur refereed the Manchester derby in Sept 1976 and there is a good sighting of him at 1.24 on the Youtube film (Man City v Man Utd 1976/77). The linesman on the right at the KO looks a bit like Gwyn Owen of Anglesey who became a supplementary ref that season.

- professional refs, Arthur questioned whether they would be any more dedicated than the FL refs were at the time. Not sure on that one but I am certain that full time professionals were needed as the game developed, particularly in the PL.

- moving free kicks 10 yards forward, I thought this was tried but not sure whether it was at the top levels.

- deflections by defenders playing forwards onside. This was never my understanding and I was always taught that forwards could only be played onside if it followed a back pass, however unintentioned.

I love Arthur's uniform, definitely old school as I think Arthur was!   
« Last Edit: Thu 06 Sep 2018 09:50 by Acme Thunderer »

robbie_scouse

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Martin Bodenham's ascent started strongly the following season when he was one of those who rose to FIFA status as the new age limits curtailed the international careers of officials such as Ray Lewis.
Indeed - he took charge of the FA Cup Semi Final (and replay) between Liverpool and Portsmouth in the 91/92 season.

Left Field

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The picture below comes from a Manchester United-Birmingham match in 1976. I know who the referee is and I imagine so do many others - here he is sending off Archie Styles of Birmingham in the era before red cards when dismissals seemed routinely to be characterised by kerfuffle, confusion and sometimes chaos.

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My interest is more in the linesman. If the programme details are correct he would have been Frank Phipps who a few years later had one of the shortest careers as a Football League referee, completing half a season before departing early in 1980. It's probably unlikely that anyone came across Mr. Phipps either on the line or in the middle but someone might have done and could say (within the limits of a murky picture) whether the pictured linesman is him.

For most of his career on the line Mr. Phipps was based in the Wirral so a Cheshire referee. The vaguely visible badge looks a little like a Cheshire one. He later moved to Wrexham where he also had his brief career in the FL middle although I'm not sure whether he was an Englishman who moved to Wales or a Welshman returning home.
« Last Edit: Fri 07 Sep 2018 18:59 by Left Field »

Grahamexref

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Yes, I am sure the referee is well known to many senior RTR members; first two initials BJ and was always known as John because of his most unusual first name !. Sorry, but I cannot help with the identity of the linesman.

Whistleblower

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At the risk of making an arcane point. The photograph does exceedingly well show the evolving practice of white sock turnovers. The referee favouring the traditional generous white turnover while the linesman following the then current trend of only showing a strip of white. i was always very firmly in the the camp of following the referee in this photo. Now of course the all black sock render all distinctions void.

Acme Thunderer

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Yes, I am sure the referee is well known to many senior RTR members; first two initials BJ and was always known as John because of his most unusual first name !. Sorry, but I cannot help with the identity of the linesman.

Yes, the name of the ref is given in the 10 minute film of the game, available to watch via Google. However the name of the linesman is not and I too cannot put a name to the face. The incident leading to the sending off of Styles took place right at the end of the game, and following another incident, BJ called the game to an end with unseemly haste, leading to the commentator talking of a 'shambles', which was perhaps an understatement! 

Boris10

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F Phipps was a regular in West Yorks/Lancs.
It does look quite like him-very often he sported a short moustache.