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Author Topic: Random referees to identify !  (Read 482 times)

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Timbo

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Random referees to identify !
« on: Sun 26 May 2024 14:33 »
This is an interesting article in itself, but there are also a couple of photographs therein that merit further attention :-
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-69037557

Who are the referees shown therein ?

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Acme Thunderer

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #1 on: Mon 27 May 2024 19:09 »
As you say, an interesting article on a 'hot topic' in the footballing world. I have no real idea on the referees, certainly not the English referee with his back to the camera. The referee in the youth tournament bears a passing resemblance to a young Sandor Puhl from Hungary but the timing is not really right, or maybe he is a German, and the linesman on the left could be Italian but no idea who.
« Last Edit: Mon 27 May 2024 19:11 by Acme Thunderer »

Timbo

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #2 on: Sun 02 Jun 2024 12:04 »
The English referee with his back to the camera does have quite a distinctive stance - hopefully someone will recognise him from that.

In the youth game, is it my imagination or is the referee wearing spectacles ? His all-black tunic with no badge reminded me of the kit worn by referees from the USSR. The linesman on the left as we look had a badge and different socks so might be from a different country ?     

John Treleven

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #3 on: Sun 02 Jun 2024 23:04 »
Some "detective" work leads me to think that the "toss up" photo' is of Kurt Tschenscher of Germany

It is the group match played on Sunday 2nd April 1961 between Portugal and England at the Jose Alvalande Stadium in Lisbon in the U.E.F.A. Youth tournament. Portugal won 4-0 and went on to win the tournament.

William "Bill" Gates then of Spennymoor was the England centre-half and captain and looks to be holding a Portuguese pennant.

It would also explain the linesmen, who I do not know, being from different nations.

They were probably from the 13 competing nations - Austria, Belgium, England, France, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Turkey and West Germany.

East Germany, Hungary and Yugoslavia withdrew late and were not replaced.

The linesman on the left possibly has a Spanish badge, with its distinctive crown, on his shirt.
« Last Edit: Mon 03 Jun 2024 06:35 by John Treleven »
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Acme Thunderer

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #4 on: Mon 10 Jun 2024 10:40 »
An interesting and informative post, thank you JT. If this is Kurt, then he would have been 32/33 at the time of this tournament, so quite possibly him and fits in with my thought that he looked German. The photo does not accord particularly with later shots of Kurt on Google, but this photo was taken a lot earlier before Kurt stepped on the international stage (World Cup finals in 1966 and 1970 and European Cup Final in 1967), so again could be Kurt. I have to say I'm surprised that a referee at an international tournament could be allowed to take charge of a match without sporting any sort of national badge. Talking German, from what I can see of the linesman who is largely hidden from view, could it be Rudolf Kreitlein by any chance? Or maybe a bit tall for the 'brave little German tailor' of Wembley 1966 fame / infamy. The other linesman has a Spanish or Italian look about him but no idea who.

The English referee with his back to the camera, it would be good to know who Boro's opponents were. I certainly don't recognise anyone in the photo and the location could be anywhere with standing room in view on the terraces. Notice the white turnups on the socks and the referee with exactly the same angle of view as his linesman on the left flank. Good for confirming goal line incidents and most offsides (bar 'pantomime - he's behind you' offsides), but not something you see now.         

John Treleven

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #5 on: Tue 11 Jun 2024 08:46 »
The 1961 linesmen were -
Jose-Maria Ortiz de Mendibil (Spain) and Pieter-Paulus Roomer (Netherlands) (the latter partially hidden)
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John Treleven

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #6 on: Tue 11 Jun 2024 10:55 »
To start on the other picture with Gates heading away an opposition corner that has eluded his GK (to the left) on a warm afternoon

It would help narrow it down if the GK and/or other Middlesbrough defender on the line can be identified (or any of the opponents)

Gates played 328 league and cup games for Middlesbrough 1961-62 to 1973-74

They were played on 60 different grounds -
157 Middlesbrough, 9 Millwall, 8 Hull, 7 Bristol C., Carlisle, Charlton, Swindon, 6 Cardiff, Huddersfield, 6 Oxford, 5 Norwich, 4 Blackpool, Bury,   Luton, Manchester C.,   Manchester U., Rotherham,   Sunderland, 3 Aston Villa, Blackburn, Derby, Fulham, Leyton O., Portsmouth, Preston, Queen's Park Rangers, Sheffield U., Tottenham, 2 Birmingham, Bolton, Brighton, Burnley, Colchester, Crystal Palace, Ipswich, Leicester, Northampton, Plymouth, Sheffield W., Watford, York City, 1 Bournemouth, Chelsea, Coventry City, Darlington, Doncaster, Everton, Grimsby, Leeds, Mansfield, Nottingham F., Oldham, Peterborough, Scunthorpe, Shrewsbury, Southampton, Stoke, Swansea, Wolverhampton W. Workington

Middlesbrough's 9 goalkeepers during his career were -
Esmond Million (4) 61-2, Bob Appleby (80) 61-2 to 66-7, Arthur Lightening (18) 62-3, Morris Emmerson (13) 62-3, Eddie Connachan (105) 63-4 to 65-6, Des McPartland (40) 64-5 to 67-8, Willie Whigham (210) 66-7 to 71-2, Maurice Short (19) 67-8 to 69-0, Jim Platt (131) 71-2 to 73-4

My first impresion is that it at Charlton, the South-East corner, looking at the vast East terrace

If so Gates' matches there were 14 Oct 61, 30 Jan 65 (F.A.Cup), 12 Mch 66, 7 Oct 67, 5 Apr 69, 13 Mch 71, 11 Spt 71
with 5 Apr 69 and 11 Spt 71 being the most likely for a "shirtleeves" afternoon

The referees were respectively -
Peter Brandwood, Ken Seddon, Norman Burtenshaw, Reg Pritchard, Jack Taylor, Ray Johnson and Bill Hall

There are photo's currently on ebay for the 11 Spt 71 match and it was indeed a shirtleeves afternoon but the kits were different so it was not that match.

The Charlton (if it is them) kit indicates it is the 14 Oct 61 match with Peter Brandwood the referee



Acme Thunderer

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #7 on: Thu 13 Jun 2024 15:08 »
Some interesting detective work here, thank you JT. I've done my own spot of delving. I think the goalie is Bob Appleby whose death (+ picture) has recently been announced, and if it is, this narrows it down to 1961 to 1966. He certainly played in the match at Charlton in October 1961, with Gates listed as a 'defender'. Of the referees noted, I don't think I ever saw Norman Burtenshaw or Jack Taylor with sleeves rolled up. Ray Johnson was certainly dark-haired but he came on the scene a bit later. I don't know any of the other referees, including Peter Brandwood. The ground could certainly be The Valley with its vast terraces and an attendance of just over 12,000, hence the open spaces which can be seen in the photo. There are many jackets and ties on display, suggesting people coming straight from Saturday morning work, and even a couple of school blazers and caps, and this suggests to me a Southern ground, probably around the London area. (For the sake of clarity, I am not suggesting for a moment that it would have been all clogs and cloth caps if it had been a Northern ground!) In a nutshell JT, I am agreeing with you that it could be Peter Brandwood (1956 - 66) from the West Midlands refereeing Charlton v Boro at The Valley in Oct 1961. A bit like 'Cluedo'! Now all we need is for someone with knowledge of Peter to shoot us down by confirming that he was bald or white-haired or an early Mr Motivator!     

John Treleven

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Acme Thunderer

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #9 on: Fri 14 Jun 2024 10:41 »
https://x.com/FortheR93378109/status/1226073662463397888

Peter Brandwood front right

Sorry, can't access the photos as I don't subscribe to X. Could it be Peter in the Boro photo or do we need to start again?

John Treleven

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Re: Random referees to identify !
« Reply #10 on: Fri 14 Jun 2024 22:16 »
A much later 'photo but tall and slim so still very much the favoured candidate
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