Author Topic: I spy old refs  (Read 2305 times)

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bmb

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I spy old refs
« on: Fri 03 Aug 2018 20:12 »
HajrŠ LilŠk. Csak a Kispest. HajrŠ Magyarok! HajrŠ jŠtťkvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel

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Left Field

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #1 on: Thu 04 Oct 2018 19:53 »
It's rare to come across colour pictures of referees from more than fifty years ago and the few that are seen tend to be of top referees in charge of Cup Finals. Therefore the pictures below of rank-and-file referee Gilbert Pullin of Bristol at a Tottenham-Manchester City game in April 1960 are paricularly interesting to see. The first shows him (centre) with the two linesmen looking over the pitch before kick-off, all dressed in formal attire:

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« Last Edit: Thu 04 Oct 2018 20:01 by Left Field »

Left Field

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #2 on: Thu 04 Oct 2018 19:57 »
The next picture shows him in refereeing kit just before kick-off:

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The final picture is chosen not particularly for refereeing reasons but because it's a very unusual image - more the angle a spectator might see than what normally appears in a picture. One thing I'm puzzled by is why City were wearing a change kit of yellow shirts and socks when there would have been no colour clash with Spurs:

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This game also featured a rare incident. Tottenham were awarded a penalty on the stroke of half-time - play can of course be extended to allow a penalty to be taken. The penalty was saved but a Tottenham player then put the ball in the net - however referee Pullin ruled no goal as the half ended when the penalty was saved. This was certainly a correct decision by the letter of the law but I suspect nowadays a goal would have been given, the half not ending until the penalty had been scored or a rebound had been completely saved or cleared.
« Last Edit: Thu 04 Oct 2018 20:00 by Left Field »

nemesis

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #3 on: Thu 04 Oct 2018 22:17 »

 ...... and here's a short feature which focuses on that match and from which, I imagine, those still pictures are taken.


https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-saturday-fever-1961-online

Grahamexref

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #4 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 00:41 »
The identity of the referee is beyond question !.

As an aside, may I suggest that 5 of the 7 Tottenham Hotspur's  players in the still are : Brown, Baker, Henry, Norman and Blanchflower.

The other defender could possibly be Dave Mckay and the wide 'right winger' Terry Dyson, Medwin ?.....or even possibly Cliff Jones.........as for the Man City players.......not a clue !!. 

P.S. Can anyone identify GP's badge on his breast pocket ?.
« Last Edit: Fri 05 Oct 2018 01:04 by Grahamexref »

nemesis

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #5 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 09:34 »
The identity of the referee is beyond question !.

As an aside, may I suggest that 5 of the 7 Tottenham Hotspur's  players in the still are : Brown, Baker, Henry, Norman and Blanchflower.

The other defender could possibly be Dave Mckay and the wide 'right winger' Terry Dyson, Medwin ?.....or even possibly Cliff Jones.........as for the Man City players.......not a clue !!. 

P.S. Can anyone identify GP's badge on his breast pocket ?.

The Terry is Medwin not Dyson.


  ..... and I think one of the City players is a young Denis Law.
« Last Edit: Fri 05 Oct 2018 10:20 by nemesis »

Acme Thunderer

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #6 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 09:40 »
An interesting film. Gilbert Pullin is not (I think) someone who has featured before on ISOR. He was on the full list for 9 seasons until 1963 but doesn't seem to have scaled any heights in that time, although to be fair to him, the opportunities to do so were probably more limited than they are now. Gilbert Napthine clearly needs to come off the 'one-and-only' given name list!

FA Cup Final featured at the end of the film was presumably 1959, with Nottingham Forest in red (and with enormous shirt badges) winning the Cup v Luton in white. Is that correct?

nemesis

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #7 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 10:40 »
The identity of the referee is beyond question !.

As an aside, may I suggest that 5 of the 7 Tottenham Hotspur's  players in the still are : Brown, Baker, Henry, Norman and Blanchflower.

The other defender could possibly be Dave Mckay and the wide 'right winger' Terry Dyson, Medwin ?.....or even possibly Cliff Jones.........as for the Man City players.......not a clue !!. 

P.S. Can anyone identify GP's badge on his breast pocket ?.

The Terry is Medwin not Dyson.


  ..... and I think one of the City players is a young Denis Law.

Here are the line-ups:

Brown, Norman, Mackay, Baker, Henry, Blanchflower, Medwin, Smith, Jones, Harmer and White.

Trautman, Leivers, Sear, Barnes, Ewing, Oakes, Barlow, Law, McAdams (goalscorer), Hayes and Colbridge.



Ref Fan

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #8 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 11:19 »
Brilliant nemesis.

Although a teenager at the time, the only names that don't ring a bell are Baker of Spurs and Colbridge of City.
If the line-ups match the old formation of 2 full backs, 3 half backs and 5 forwards, it suggests Dave MacKay was left back.  I always thought of him as a midfielder but no doubt the memory is playing tricks. 

Even then I was a United fan, but I well remember that City half back line of Barnes, Ewing and Oakes.

nemesis

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #9 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 11:25 »
Brilliant nemesis.

Although a teenager at the time, the only names that don't ring a bell are Baker of Spurs and Colbridge of City.
If the line-ups match the old formation of 2 full backs, 3 half backs and 5 forwards, it suggests Dave MacKay was left back.  I always thought of him as a midfielder but no doubt the memory is playing tricks. 

Even then I was a United fan, but I well remember that City half back line of Barnes, Ewing and Oakes.

Ron Henry would have been left back.

Acme Thunderer

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #10 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 14:10 »
Reference the disallowed Spurs goal from a penalty at half time, this game was one of the last of the 1959/60 season (16/4/60) and Spurs lost 0-1 to a late City goal. At the end of the season, Spurs lost the Div 1 title by 2 points when 2 points were awarded for a win, and Spurs' goal average and difference were a lot better than the eventual title winners, Burnley. So in a sense, Mr Pullin's decision to disallow the goal was crucial in deciding the title destination that season. As you say, we are unlikely to see a similar situation now on the PL, with time being added on for stoppages even in added time, and I can't imagine Mr Pullin was welcomed with open arms at WHL for the remainder of his FL career.  :o   

nemesis

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #11 on: Fri 05 Oct 2018 21:09 »
Reference the disallowed Spurs goal from a penalty at half time, this game was one of the last of the 1959/60 season (16/4/60) and Spurs lost 0-1 to a late City goal. At the end of the season, Spurs lost the Div 1 title by 2 points when 2 points were awarded for a win, and Spurs' goal average and difference were a lot better than the eventual title winners, Burnley. So in a sense, Mr Pullin's decision to disallow the goal was crucial in deciding the title destination that season. As you say, we are unlikely to see a similar situation now on the PL, with time being added on for stoppages even in added time, and I can't imagine Mr Pullin was welcomed with open arms at WHL for the remainder of his FL career.  :o   

All other things being equal, they'd have still lost the title, but by just one point !

Acme Thunderer

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #12 on: Sat 06 Oct 2018 11:32 »
Thanks nemesis, I had rather assumed that Spurs would hold on to a half time lead but.....

I wonder whether Mr Pullin ever refereed at Wembley with the FA Amateur Cup Final, given his years of experience? I recall seeing a list of FAACF refs under the old ISOR system but cannot locate it. Might it be possible to copy it across, as with the FA Cup Final et al? Thanks.   

olddeagle

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #13 on: Sat 06 Oct 2018 23:45 »
Here's the file I complied of all final officials down to 2000, which includes the Amateur Cup, but Mr Pullin didn't feature.

(John Coyle has now extended this down to the present day).

Pullin always sticks in my memory because I saw him do Arsenal 4, Man Utd 5 at Highbury the week before Munich, the last time some of those lads played in England. I was only 7 so can't say I have any great recall of his performance.
Great photos, thanks for posting them. I can't find a programme on line to identify the linesmen but perhaps some Spurs supporters out there will have one?

« Last Edit: Tue 09 Oct 2018 16:27 by olddeagle »

Acme Thunderer

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Re: I spy old refs
« Reply #14 on: Tue 09 Oct 2018 15:48 »
The next picture shows him in refereeing kit just before kick-off:

(Attachment Link)

The final picture is chosen not particularly for refereeing reasons but because it's a very unusual image - more the angle a spectator might see than what normally appears in a picture. One thing I'm puzzled by is why City were wearing a change kit of yellow shirts and socks when there would have been no colour clash with Spurs:

(Attachment Link)

This game also featured a rare incident. Tottenham were awarded a penalty on the stroke of half-time - play can of course be extended to allow a penalty to be taken. The penalty was saved but a Tottenham player then put the ball in the net - however referee Pullin ruled no goal as the half ended when the penalty was saved. This was certainly a correct decision by the letter of the law but I suspect nowadays a goal would have been given, the half not ending until the penalty had been scored or a rebound had been completely saved or cleared.

I am always interested in film and photos showing aspects of British society in days of old. I was particularly interested in this film/stills and decided to do some delving. The result is that I have made contact with Gilbert's son via the Gloucs FA. This is what he has said:

"Thanks for the contact I was at the match, what really happened was Dad gave a penalty to Tottenham with 1 min of the first half to go. Cliff Jones took some time to place ball this was in the 47min which meant in those days the penalty had to be taken to end the half. Jones took the penalty, Trautman parried the ball, Dad blew his whistle, Jones then put the ball into the net,answer no goal.
Dad was accepted onto the football league as a linesman now assistant in 1947 being promoted to the middle in 1951 and all the time never sent a player off, always saying its easy to send a player off, the hardest job was keeping them on.
Dad joined the GFA after starting his own league in 1962 and was Chairman up until his death in 1991. I served with him all that time, then took over from him in 1992 as Chairman/Secretary  up until May 2018 when due to lack of teams we decided to fold, a very sad day after some 55 years service. I still serve on the GFA as a FA trained Chairman, Cups Committee and also look after the 3G pitch which we have to brush twice a week. all as volunteer.
In 2013 I was awarded a 50 year award.
Hope this gives you some insight."

It does indeed give plenty of insight and I am grateful to Gilbert's son for his detailed response and to the Gloucs FA for facilitating the contact so quickly. AT
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