+-

+-User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 

Login with your social network

Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 965
Latest: BlindRef
New This Month: 12
New This Week: 2
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 76099
Total Topics: 5610
Most Online Today: 223
Most Online Ever: 17046
(Mon 29 Mar 2021 19:08)
Users Online
Members: 12
Guests: 86
Total: 98

Author Topic: F.C. Green and G. Todd  (Read 209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jad

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
F.C. Green and G. Todd
« on: Wed 27 Jan 2021 15:02 »
Since F.C. Green and G. Todd have both featured in recent postings in this section of the forum, I thought it might be worth finding out what information concerning these gentlemen is held on the footballfacts.ru web-site. 

But first some notes about the site.  At present the site is being updated, and this information is from the old version: old.footbalfacts.ru.  The coverage of match officials in English league football is far from complete and often erratic: there is hardly any coverage from before 1949, but then for the period from 1949 to about the end of the 1960s there is substantial coverage of the first division and some information about F.A. Cup games; thereafter information again becomes sparse.  For the 1950s and 1960s the site often reproduces the team pages of the match programme, which is sometimes helpful for unscrambling dodgy transliterations.   

For Major Green there is information concerning eight matches, one in 1948-9 and the rest from 1949-50.   

21.8.48 Huddersfield Town vs Arsenal  R: F.C. Green; L: G. Clark & H.R. Smith
20.8.49 Arsenal vs Burnley  R: F.C. Green; L: P.C. Annette (Basingstoke) & W.O.T. Pounder (Aldershot)
8.10.49 Chelsea vs Manchester C.  R: Maj. F.C. Green; L: J.A.E. Stone (Woking) & A.G.F. Cook (Chichester)
12.11.49 Manchester C. vs Arsenal R: F.C. Green; L: A. Holland (Barnsley) & H. Davis (Bradford)
26.12.49 Chelsea vs Liverpool R: Maj. F.C. Green; L: P.C. Annette & F.C. Williams (Oxford)
27.12.49 Liverpool vs Chelsea R: F.C. Green; L: R.P. Hartley (Burnley) & W.C. Yates
25.2.50 Manchester C. vs Chelsea R: F.C. Green; L: A. Chisem [sic] & J.W. Haigh
4.3.50 Burnley vs Fulham R: F.C. Green; L: W. Heskine & R.S. Frew

For all except the the game at Arsenal spellings of names and use of the military rank are taken from the match programmes.  I was particularly struck by the appointments for the 26 and 27 December 1949.

Information concerning Mr Todd to follow in due course.

Edited to show that the fixture of 27 December 1949 was played at Liverpool and was not simply a repeat of the previous day's game at Stamford Bridge.  Sorry about that.
« Last Edit: Fri 29 Jan 2021 11:02 by jad »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Informative Informative x 2 View List

John Treleven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,708
    • View Profile
Re: F.C. Green and G. Todd
« Reply #1 on: Thu 28 Jan 2021 07:30 »
Thank you for extracting those, I have updated my Green article accordingly

I note that appointments for reverse fixtures were still continuing
Chelsea v Manchester City, which he also did the previous season, and Chelsea v Liverpool

It is possible that Burnley v Fulham was his last match as it came the day after his G.B.H. trial

I have filled in the missing home towns of the lino's below

WOT Pounder is Warrant Officer (of the Veterinary Corps) T. Pounder
Chisem is the correct spelling for Albert Chisem

21.8.48 Huddersfield Town vs Arsenal  R: F.C. Green; L: G. Clark (Sale) & H.R. Smith (Sheffield)
20.8.49 Arsenal vs Burnley  R: F.C. Green; L: P.C. Annette (Basingstoke) & W/O T. Pounder (Aldershot)
8.10.49 Chelsea vs Manchester C.  R: Maj. F.C. Green; L: J.A.E. Stone (Woking) & A.G.F. Cook (Chichester)
12.11.49 Manchester C. vs Arsenal R: F.C. Green; L: A. Holland (Barnsley) & H. Davis (Bradford)
26.12.49 Chelsea vs Liverpool R: Maj. F.C. Green; L: P.C. Annette (Basingstoke) & F.C. Williams (Oxford)
27.12.49 Liverpool vs Chelsea R: F.C. Green; L: R.P. Hartley (Burnley) & W.C. Yates (Chorley)
25.2.50 Manchester C. vs Chelsea R: F.C. Green; L: A. Chisem (Leeds) & J.W. Haigh (Huddersfield)
4.3.50 Burnley vs Fulham R: F.C. Green; L: W. Heskine (Birkenhead) & R.S. Frew (Stockport)

Informative Informative x 2 View List

jad

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: F.C. Green and G. Todd
« Reply #2 on: Thu 28 Jan 2021 11:11 »
Thanks for the additional information and corrections.

There are 19 (the site for some reason says 20) entries for George Todd, covering three seasons from 1949 to 1952.  In five matches he was the referee, while in the others he was a linesman.  In those days referees on the Football League Supplementary List were also given appointments as linesmen.

20.8.49 Newcastle Utd vs Portsmouth R: H.C. Williams (Fulham); L. G. Todd & W. Heselton (West Hartlepool)
1.10.49 Newcastle Utd vs Stoke C. R: A.C. Denham (Ashton-on-Ribble); L: G. Todd & E.E. Hall (Ferryhill)
5.11.49 Sunderland vs Charlton Ath. R: H. Peacock [sic] (Scunthorpe); L: G. Todd & J. Gardner (Middlesbrough).  For Peacock read Beacock
26.12.49 Huddersfield T. vs Manchester C. R: R.J. Leafe (Nottingham); L: G. Todd & C.P. Walker (Sheffield)
4.3.50 Liverpool vs Blackpool (F.A. Cup, 6th round) R: B.M. Griffiths (Newport); L: G. Todd & A.B. Bailey (Stockport)
*11.3.50 Manchester C. vs Bolton W. R: G. Todd; L: T. Hitchen (Winsford) & H. Dalton
8.4.50 Huddersfield T. vs Derby Co.  R: H. Beacock; L: G. Todd & J.A. Cattlin (Rochdale)

26.8.50 Newcastle Utd vs Everton R: H.R.A. Mortimer (Huddersfield); L: G. Todd & W.Heselton
7.10.50 Sunderland vs Huddersfield T. R: F.H. Gerrard (Preston); L: G. Todd & E.E. Hall
18.11.50 Blackpool vs Huddersfield T. R: G. Todd; L: J.H. Andrews (Manchester) & L.J. Hamer (Horwich)
*9.12.50 Huddersfield T. vs Manchester U. R: S.E. Law (West Bromwich); L: G. Todd & H.R. Smith
26.3.51 Sunderland vs Newcastle Utd R: B.J. Flanagan (Sheffield); L: G. Todd & E.E. Hall
§7.4.51 Newcastle Utd vs Tottenham H. R: W.H.E. Evans (Liverpool); L: G. Todd & A. Brown (Middlesbrough)
§7.4.51 Huddersfield T. vs Blackpool R: G. Todd; L: F.I. White & G.F. Peverell [or Peverelli?] (Doncaster)
§*5.5.51 Sunderland vs Wolverhampton W. R: E. Plinston (Warrington); L: G. Todd & G. Todd (!)

*29.8.51 Newcastle Utd vs Bolton W. R.: H. Beacock; L: G. Todd & H. Hawthorne (Willington)
*20.10.51 Bolton W. vs Huddersfield T. R: G. Todd; L: G.A. Pickering & T.B. Edwards (New Ferry)
16.2.52 Sunderland vs Bolton W. R: A.W. Luty (Leeds); L: G. Todd & R. Fenwick (Newcastle)
8.3.52 Huddersfield T. vs Bolton W. R: G. Todd; L: G.A. Beecroft (Hull) & R. Lynch

Matches for which the programme pages are not reproduced are indicated by an asterisk.

§ It would seem from this that Mr Todd was blessed with the gift of bilocation.  On 5 May 1951 the site suggests that he was expected to run both lines simultaneously.  Unfortunately, since in this case the match programme is not reproduced, the correct identity of the second linesman cannot be established.  The case of 7 April 1951, when Mr Todd seems to have been expected to officiate in two matches in two separate locations, is more complicated.  Both match programmes are reproduced, both give the date as 7April and both indicate Mr Todd in the respective functions of linesman and referee.  Discarding the attractive, but implausible theory of bilocation, we are left with several possible explanations, and perhaps someone with access to other sources can establish what really did happen on that date.
Informative Informative x 2 View List

John Treleven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,708
    • View Profile
Re: F.C. Green and G. Todd
« Reply #3 on: Thu 28 Jan 2021 14:57 »
Missing Lino locations

Dalton (Bradford)
Heselton (Hartlepool)
Smith (Sheffield)
White (Bolton)
Peverelli is with the "i" - in his first season
Lynch (Blackburn)

Perhaps the site credits him with 20 because it has him down for both lines on 5th May 51?

Possibly the other Todd that day was actually Allan Calderwood McKinstry Todd who was elevated to line status in 1949-50
He, like George, was from the Darlington area, coming from Haughton Le Skerne, two miles north-east of Darlington
I do not think they were related with George born in Darlington and Allan probably from Scotland

It might also be him (Allan) on the line for 7th April 1951, leaving George free to referee at Huddersfield that day
« Last Edit: Thu 28 Jan 2021 15:27 by John Treleven »
Informative Informative x 1 View List

jad

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: F.C. Green and G. Todd
« Reply #4 on: Fri 29 Jan 2021 11:04 »
Thanks again for the additional information.  Your suggestion that there were two Mr Todds makes perfect sense to me.
Informative Informative x 1 View List

olddeagle

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Re: F.C. Green and G. Todd
« Reply #5 on: Thu 04 Feb 2021 18:17 »
I have learned from my researches into the original Bedford Town to be wary of information in programmes, which inevitably tends to be recycled in press reports. I've founds instances of referees apparently travelling very long distances (at a time before motorways and when many didn't have cars) when I suspect whoever was passing the information to the printer simply picked up the wrong line on the appointments list and the name of whoever was doing the next, or preceding match on the fixture list. And the following total mash up occurred in Bedford's  home match v Weymouth in November 1958-the actual officials were C A Sharp of Welwyn Garden City in the middle, and on the line were D W Pullin (Oxford) and A E Dimond (Harlow-later of course a well known FL referee), but this was printed as referee A E Dimond (Welwyn), Linesmen D W Pullin (Harlow) and C A Sharp (Oxford).  It makes you wonder about how many more of these mistakes are never detected.
Informative Informative x 1 View List