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Author Topic: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi  (Read 893 times)

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bmb

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William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« on: Wed 18 Aug 2021 21:59 »
21:00 CET - Bern (Stadion Wankdorf)
BSC Young Boys (SUI) - Ferencvárosi TC (HUN)
Referee: William Collum (SCO)
Assistant Referee 1: David McGeachie (SCO)
Assistant Referee 2: Francis Connor (SCO)
Fourth Official: Donald Robertson (SCO)
Video Assistant Referee: Christopher Kavanagh (ENG)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Paul Tierney (ENG)
UEFA Referee Observer: Mehmet Murat Ilgaz (TUR)
UEFA Delegate: Ronald Zimmermann (GER)

I am baffled in this one.

No problem with the first 3 yellows - agree with all of them. 1st 2 goals all legal and no probs.  Red card for Hefti (Young boys) - not a red for me. He was holding the Fradi player no more than that - I agree it was a penalty but cannot understand the red. So onto the penalty, Uzuni hit the post, it rebounded, the keeper pawed it away and a defender scored an own goal.  6 players encroached before the kick was taken- 3 from each team. The goal was disallowed and an indirect free kick given. I think that was wrong. I think that should have been a retake or the goal allowed to stand.  It was a complete confusing mess & I believe the wrong call has been made!  The game was 1-1 at that point so it was a huge game changing error, imo.

Yellow card to Kharatin was far more of a red card than the red card given to Hefti.  I think that was a wrong call as well. More red than yellow, imo. It was late & studs on the ankle.  Game at 1-1 at this point.

Yellows for Laidouni & Blazic - no problem. Laidouni was player stupidity at it's finest.  He'd been given a very stern last chance warning (for constant yapping)  just seconds before and immediately dived in for a foul.

At no point did Collum look in control.  I made a remark after Kharatin's YC that he needed to stamp his authority and take control - within a couple of mins came the Young boys red and the whole penalty malarky!

Final score was Young boys 3-2 Fradi.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

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Wollongong Ref

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #1 on: Wed 18 Aug 2021 23:42 »
One would suggest that based on the restart the attacking team has been penalised for encroachment.

scottie

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #2 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 06:08 »
Detailed summary BMB, thank you. I haven’t seen the match yet but from what you’ve written it would seem that Kavanagh could/should have intervened as VAR?
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Affy_Moose

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #3 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 12:50 »
The video is available here for those interested: https://www.bscyb.ch/news?nid=12645

#14's tackle given as a yellow looks like SFP.  Clearly studs showing and makes contact with the shin, albeit a 'glancing' blow which is probably why he avoided being sent off.  Missed RC for me.

The red card given?  I'm comfortable with this.  I can see a debate on DOGSO or promising attack, but it's a clear shirt pull and RC is definitely defensible.

For the IFK for the penalty, when the still frame is reviewed, player #93 is clearly into the penalty area, whilst defensive #5 doesn't look his feet have crossed the line.  Collum is looking and pointing at #93 and he's the player that scores/forces the goal.  I don't see a LotG failure here. 

I'm not sure what you've seen, but the still frame only clearly shows one player entering the penalty area as the kick is taken.  Not sure where you think six has come from?
« Last Edit: Thu 19 Aug 2021 12:53 by Affy_Moose »
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bmb

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #4 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 14:18 »
The video is available here for those interested: https://www.bscyb.ch/news?nid=12645

#14's tackle given as a yellow looks like SFP.  Clearly studs showing and makes contact with the shin, albeit a 'glancing' blow which is probably why he avoided being sent off.  Missed RC for me.


That is Kharatin - the one I said was more of a red than the red given.


The red card given?  I'm comfortable with this.  I can see a debate on DOGSO or promising attack, but it's a clear shirt pull and RC is definitely defensible.


DOGSO????? There were 2 defenders right there plus the goalkeeper.


For the IFK for the penalty, when the still frame is reviewed, player #93 is clearly into the penalty area, whilst defensive #5 doesn't look his feet have crossed the line.  Collum is looking and pointing at #93 and he's the player that scores/forces the goal.  I don't see a LotG failure here. 

I'm not sure what you've seen, but the still frame only clearly shows one player entering the penalty area as the kick is taken.  Not sure where you think six has come from?

Boli (93) didn't score, the defender did. The camera from behind the goal showed 6 players in the box as the kick was taken - granted Boli was first in there, with the defender who scored, (Martins Perera was the one credited). The press were told it was disallowed for a foul.  Zeiger is #5 according to the line up sheet so there are 2 of the defenders.  I still think it should have been a retake.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

bmb

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #5 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 14:19 »
Detailed summary BMB, thank you. I haven’t seen the match yet but from what you’ve written it would seem that Kavanagh could/should have intervened as VAR?

There was a long VAR review!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

Wollongong Ref

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #6 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 14:21 »
Hi All, Here is my thoughts for what they are worth on the main points.

The tackle Yc sits in the high range of a YC. Ref is correct to give it. HAd Willie C gone Red it would be wrong. Remember that the old adage of orange card is now down grade to a yellow not upgraded.
Pen andRc is spot on.
Disallowed goal is correct based on the footage shown.

Willie C will get ticks for Key decisions but and this is personal opinions... we must be the lowest of the Elite referees.
Even giving the correct decisions he does not look comfortable or inspire confidence.

bmb

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #7 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 14:34 »

Willie C will get ticks for Key decisions but and this is personal opinions... we must be the lowest of the Elite referees.
Even giving the correct decisions he does not look comfortable or inspire confidence.


This! He'd managed to wind up both sets of players within 15 mins, there was a mass show of dissent with both teams having their say and judging by the gestures none of it was good!! The players clearly didn't respect him or have any confidence in him throughout the game. As a viewer I never felt he had control at all & I fall into the category of always defending the referee unless a decision is clearly indefensible. I've seen far better Cat 2 & 3 refs, who we normally get at our lowly level.

At the end of the day, the better team won on the pitch, even with 10 men they dominated. They are a stronger, better team from a bigger and better league & it showed.  Fradi fought well though but failed to take advantage of the 1 man deficit. The result was as we all expected before kick off. Kharatin is now suspended for the 2nd leg but hopefully Tokmac will be back & on fire!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

Affy_Moose

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #8 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 15:01 »
The video is available here for those interested: https://www.bscyb.ch/news?nid=12645

#14's tackle given as a yellow looks like SFP.  Clearly studs showing and makes contact with the shin, albeit a 'glancing' blow which is probably why he avoided being sent off.  Missed RC for me.


That is Kharatin - the one I said was more of a red than the red given.


The red card given?  I'm comfortable with this.  I can see a debate on DOGSO or promising attack, but it's a clear shirt pull and RC is definitely defensible.


DOGSO????? There were 2 defenders right there plus the goalkeeper.


For the IFK for the penalty, when the still frame is reviewed, player #93 is clearly into the penalty area, whilst defensive #5 doesn't look his feet have crossed the line.  Collum is looking and pointing at #93 and he's the player that scores/forces the goal.  I don't see a LotG failure here. 

I'm not sure what you've seen, but the still frame only clearly shows one player entering the penalty area as the kick is taken.  Not sure where you think six has come from?

Boli (93) didn't score, the defender did. The camera from behind the goal showed 6 players in the box as the kick was taken - granted Boli was first in there, with the defender who scored, (Martins Perera was the one credited). The press were told it was disallowed for a foul.  Zeiger is #5 according to the line up sheet so there are 2 of the defenders.  I still think it should have been a retake.

Yes DOGSO.  At the moment the pull is made, the second defender is not blocking the shot.  The gk is not relevant in the DOGSO consideration as is almost always the case, and neither is the fouling defender - the only concern is the position of the second defender.  Consideration of DOGSO is made immediately at the point of contact/foul, not where the player/ball/defender is a second later.

Anyway, I noted that it is debatable, but that is why the decision is made.  If the referee judges it to be an obvious goalscoring opportunity, and it is a foul, then it must be a red card by virtue of the ball not being playable in the challenge.

The still image taken from the side of the pitch in the clip shows only one attacking player has entered the penalty area.  No defending players have.  #93 is challenging for the ball as the OG is scored.  It's a textbook example of an attacker entering the penalty area before a kick is taken.  It will be a UEFA classroom video next year.

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Your comparison between an Elite referee and Category 2/3 officials that referee games in Tier 5, 6, and 7 in Scotland is presumably not a serious one?
« Last Edit: Thu 19 Aug 2021 17:29 by Affy_Moose »

RCG

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #9 on: Thu 19 Aug 2021 21:56 »
I think BMB was referring to UEFA categories, with Collum "Elite" and others Cat 1/2 or even 3
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bmb

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #10 on: Fri 20 Aug 2021 03:55 »
I think BMB was referring to UEFA categories, with Collum "Elite" and others Cat 1/2 or even 3

Indeed I was.  We normally get UEFA Cat 2/3 referees on Hungarian games, club and National team, it's rare we get an elite ref, except at big tournaments obviously on the rare occasions we qualify for them!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!

Affy_Moose

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #11 on: Fri 20 Aug 2021 10:36 »
I think BMB was referring to UEFA categories, with Collum "Elite" and others Cat 1/2 or even 3

Indeed I was.  We normally get UEFA Cat 2/3 referees on Hungarian games, club and National team, it's rare we get an elite ref, except at big tournaments obviously on the rare occasions we qualify for them!

Apologies, both.  I take the point.
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Tweed

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #12 on: Sun 22 Aug 2021 13:31 »
I've just watched the highlights.  I think the yellow card is the mistake, Willie Collum sent a St Mirren player off yesterday for an almost identical tackle at Parkhead.  I think he is right about DOGSO, the Ferencvaros player was about to have a free shot on the keeper when he was dragged, I don't think there is any argument that is not a red card.  I also think on balance, he got the encroachment call correct.  The attacking player who was over the line forced the own goal. 

Collum is a strange ref as he is normally very accurate but he always looks for advantages, often when none exists, which means he is sometimes a bit slow on the whistle and it frustrates people because they think the crowd has influenced or whatever.  But he is the best Scottish referee in my lifetime despite the bad rep he seems to have from a lot of external stakeholders.

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Re: William Collum - Young Boys v Fradi
« Reply #13 on: Sat 28 Aug 2021 16:28 »
I have now watched the game and feel on balance he got most of the decisions right. I can only assume that VAR looked at the yellow card  and considered it was acceptable so no OFR was required. From what I saw, apart for the usual crowd noise when the officials left the field there were no mass protests at half or full time so I'm not sure where all the wound up players were? Likewise when the encroachment for the penalty was given there were no significant protests. The commentators (for what thee are worth were roundly critical but after several watchings were agreeing his calls were correct

Technically he is accurate (with the penalty) and was always up with play which helped him make the calls.

I would agree with Tweed he is a bit of an enigma. I think he's not one of the current crop of 'personality referees' and doesn't whistle long and loud like Brych or referee by reputation (Orsato/Kuipers). I also think it can't help when the same referees are being handed match after match irrespective of good, bad, or indifferent performances; this can't help with any confidence issues with Collum and in the remaining Elite Group referees. I would also agree that his 'staying in the background' (which is surely what we all want?) makes him look unconfident and he does seek to play on wherever possible which often brings criticism (from the uninitiated). A prime example being during Turkey V Czech Rep in Euro'16, he played and advantage and when the ball was played through the flag went up for offside (remember those days?). He brought back play to the original foul to a barrage of complaints from the commentators and players - I'm not sure why since calling back to the original foul was, surely the correct decision after the advanced didn't work?

I think his watershed was the all Spanish Super Cup in 2015 when he did what he was told and kept all the players on the pitch and I think this affected his confidence. I also think he suffers from Scotland not using VAR consistently. Why people keep lobbying for him to loose his Elite Status while supporting the likes of Grindfeld, Dias, Turpin and Hetegan, for example is beyond me. Likewise, the constant insinuation that it's only Hugh Dallas' influence that is keeping he Elite status, if that was the case then why wasn't he at the Euros? My final point of agreement with Tweed, he is the best I've seen for a long, long time despite the the criticism he gets.