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Author Topic: The VAR thread  (Read 69266 times)

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bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #915 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 17:56 »
We finally have the first penalty awarded for a player kicking the ball at a defenders hand! Congratulations Anthony Taylor  ;D

Dermot Gallagher has always said that Stockley Park was sealed off and there was no communication with the outside world whilst the VAR officials were in operation. Clearly wrong as Sky have just shown Neil Swarbrick in there at half-time speaking to Stuart Attwell - and making lots of gestures with his arms!



Footage of Neil Swarbrick inside the VAR area earlier.

https://twitter.com/footballdaily/status/1325453036773322755
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

DublinRef

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #916 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 18:49 »
We finally have the first penalty awarded for a player kicking the ball at a defenders hand! Congratulations Anthony Taylor  ;D

Dermot Gallagher has always said that Stockley Park was sealed off and there was no communication with the outside world whilst the VAR officials were in operation. Clearly wrong as Sky have just shown Neil Swarbrick in there at half-time speaking to Stuart Attwell - and making lots of gestures with his arms!



Footage of Neil Swarbrick inside the VAR area earlier.

https://twitter.com/footballdaily/status/1325453036773322755

Maybe people will think I'm overreacting, say they're all colleagues, talk regularly, its an informal chat etc etc. But I think that is somewhat inappropriate, for two reasons -

1. PGMOL have, from what I've seen, said that the VAR is essentially sealed away during the game, this clip throws that into doubt even if it is at half time
2. The contents of the conversation being unknown will lead people to conclude that the VAR is influenced or advised by Swarbrick, this raises obvious questions over whether or not Swarbrick or others have any interaction during the game itself

I am not for one second suggesting that the latter is actually happening, my main point is the optics of this - it could lead one to doubt, somewhat, the integrity of the process
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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #917 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 19:24 »
I think the active AR might have been telling Taylor there was a possible handball as he had by far the best view of it.  No point in him signalling it though as they know VAR will have a look.

Well, that is their job!

I'm a bit confused about where the PL is with handball now. We saw a flurry of handballs earlier in the season, than quite a substantial change was announced for PL games, and now we've had two today.

bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #918 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 20:56 »
I think the active AR might have been telling Taylor there was a possible handball as he had by far the best view of it.  No point in him signalling it though as they know VAR will have a look.

Well, that is their job!

I'm a bit confused about where the PL is with handball now. We saw a flurry of handballs earlier in the season, than quite a substantial change was announced for PL games, and now we've had two today.

Perhaps FIFA has told them they can't ignore the universal interpretations and guidelines and choose to go their own way again?  Very much in line with the FIFA guidelines this weekend.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #919 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 21:01 »
I think the active AR might have been telling Taylor there was a possible handball as he had by far the best view of it.  No point in him signalling it though as they know VAR will have a look.

Well, that is their job!

I'm a bit confused about where the PL is with handball now. We saw a flurry of handballs earlier in the season, than quite a substantial change was announced for PL games, and now we've had two today.

Perhaps FIFA has told them they can't ignore the universal interpretations and guidelines and choose to go their own way again?  Very much in line with the FIFA guidelines this weekend.

Well if so that has to be clearly communicated to everyone - we can't just all play 'guess what interpretations we're using this week?' every weekend!


bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #920 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 21:09 »
We finally have the first penalty awarded for a player kicking the ball at a defenders hand! Congratulations Anthony Taylor  ;D

Dermot Gallagher has always said that Stockley Park was sealed off and there was no communication with the outside world whilst the VAR officials were in operation. Clearly wrong as Sky have just shown Neil Swarbrick in there at half-time speaking to Stuart Attwell - and making lots of gestures with his arms!



Footage of Neil Swarbrick inside the VAR area earlier.

https://twitter.com/footballdaily/status/1325453036773322755

Maybe people will think I'm overreacting, say they're all colleagues, talk regularly, its an informal chat etc etc. But I think that is somewhat inappropriate, for two reasons -

1. PGMOL have, from what I've seen, said that the VAR is essentially sealed away during the game, this clip throws that into doubt even if it is at half time
2. The contents of the conversation being unknown will lead people to conclude that the VAR is influenced or advised by Swarbrick, this raises obvious questions over whether or not Swarbrick or others have any interaction during the game itself

I am not for one second suggesting that the latter is actually happening, my main point is the optics of this - it could lead one to doubt, somewhat, the integrity of the process


Completely agree. If he has got it wrong, and I have not watched so offer zero opinion on that, then there is a time & place for Neil Swarbrick to give him guidance* & half time is not that time. It is a time when he should not be anywhere near him for any reason whatsoever if for no other reason than to protect the integrity of the VAR & whole process.  *We have no way to tell what is being said so I'm not assuming that is what is happening in the clip, just a suggestion.

If Stuart has asked for guidance because he really doesn't know what the decision should be because the HB law is absolutely dreadful and the very strict harsh FIFA guidelined interpretations make it even more so, then the only people he should discuss it with are the on field referee and maybe get input from the AVAR as well. They are a legitimate member of the team. I'm sure he could 'play' the system enough to be able to say over the mic, do you know what, I have no idea if it is or isn't, can you do an onfield review and call it how you see it.  Rather that than images coming out that look bad whichever way you look at them.  Any further guidance either he wants to seek with his boss or his boss wants to seek with him must not occur until after the final whistle has gone.
« Last Edit: Sun 08 Nov 2020 21:12 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #921 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 21:11 »
I think the active AR might have been telling Taylor there was a possible handball as he had by far the best view of it.  No point in him signalling it though as they know VAR will have a look.

Well, that is their job!

I'm a bit confused about where the PL is with handball now. We saw a flurry of handballs earlier in the season, than quite a substantial change was announced for PL games, and now we've had two today.

Perhaps FIFA has told them they can't ignore the universal interpretations and guidelines and choose to go their own way again?  Very much in line with the FIFA guidelines this weekend.

Well if so that has to be clearly communicated to everyone - we can't just all play 'guess what interpretations we're using this week?' every weekend!



I don't disagree. It's not fair on anyone, least of all the team of match officials who are the ones getting slated for it either way.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #922 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 21:47 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!




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Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #923 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:08 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!

He is the boss as far as VAR implementation is concerned, therefore, that being the case ---why should the boss not talk to his workforce because that is exactly what he is doing and everything else is just speculation.
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DublinRef

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #924 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:12 »
We finally have the first penalty awarded for a player kicking the ball at a defenders hand! Congratulations Anthony Taylor  ;D

Dermot Gallagher has always said that Stockley Park was sealed off and there was no communication with the outside world whilst the VAR officials were in operation. Clearly wrong as Sky have just shown Neil Swarbrick in there at half-time speaking to Stuart Attwell - and making lots of gestures with his arms!



Footage of Neil Swarbrick inside the VAR area earlier.

https://twitter.com/footballdaily/status/1325453036773322755

Maybe people will think I'm overreacting, say they're all colleagues, talk regularly, its an informal chat etc etc. But I think that is somewhat inappropriate, for two reasons -

1. PGMOL have, from what I've seen, said that the VAR is essentially sealed away during the game, this clip throws that into doubt even if it is at half time
2. The contents of the conversation being unknown will lead people to conclude that the VAR is influenced or advised by Swarbrick, this raises obvious questions over whether or not Swarbrick or others have any interaction during the game itself

I am not for one second suggesting that the latter is actually happening, my main point is the optics of this - it could lead one to doubt, somewhat, the integrity of the process


Completely agree. If he has got it wrong, and I have not watched so offer zero opinion on that, then there is a time & place for Neil Swarbrick to give him guidance* & half time is not that time. It is a time when he should not be anywhere near him for any reason whatsoever if for no other reason than to protect the integrity of the VAR & whole process.  *We have no way to tell what is being said so I'm not assuming that is what is happening in the clip, just a suggestion.

If Stuart has asked for guidance because he really doesn't know what the decision should be because the HB law is absolutely dreadful and the very strict harsh FIFA guidelined interpretations make it even more so, then the only people he should discuss it with are the on field referee and maybe get input from the AVAR as well. They are a legitimate member of the team. I'm sure he could 'play' the system enough to be able to say over the mic, do you know what, I have no idea if it is or isn't, can you do an onfield review and call it how you see it.  Rather that than images coming out that look bad whichever way you look at them.  Any further guidance either he wants to seek with his boss or his boss wants to seek with him must not occur until after the final whistle has gone.

Totally agree, while I am not in any doubt whatsoever of anyone's integrity as individuals, I do think the integrity of the process itself is somewhat compromised by this.

I see from Readingfan that Dale Johnson (who seems like he's honorary PGMOL spokesperson) has clarified this is a regular occurrence but I think official clarification is needed from the PGMOL on the nature and purpose of Swarbrick's communication with the VAR officials and how/if it is allowed under the protocols.
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DublinRef

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #925 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:17 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!

He is the boss as far as VAR implementation is concerned, therefore, that being the case ---why should the boss not talk to his workforce because that is exactly what he is doing and everything else is just speculation.

I suppose as his workforce is in the business of making decisions it is fair to speculate he is discussing the validity of decisions. I think this muddies the water as to who has a say in what the VAR recommends to the referee, does Swarbrick make comments to the VAR during the game? Does anyone else speak to the VAR at any stage during the match? More overarchingly, is the VAR being influenced by other parties during the game?

While I would be very confident the answer to both those questions is no - this interaction does suggest that the VAR is not isolated from the world as the PGMOL seemed to previously suggest and as, in my opinion, should be the way they operate.
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bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #926 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:29 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!

He is the boss as far as VAR implementation is concerned, therefore, that being the case ---why should the boss not talk to his workforce because that is exactly what he is doing and everything else is just speculation.

Basically because there is a time & a place and a chit chat during half time is not the right time & place.  It doesn't matter if the conversation was how's the wife & kids, you should have seen the dog trying to run up a steep muddy hill he other day, looked like this (hence the running simulation...) or whatever because the very nature of it occurring is enough to cast doubt over the integrity of the VAR for anyone looking to cast doubt over it.  Why put themselves in that position? It is stupid. The very fact it can't be heard is what causes the speculation & can lead to doubt being cast.

Match assessors/observers are not allowed entry to the referees dressing room during half time, even UEFA match Delegates are not allowed any access to them, unless there is a major security issue that could affect the game & then they have to be accompanied by representatives from both teams. This is in place in the main to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity.

The VAR & AVAR are part of that match officials team and like the onfield officials no-one should have any access to them whatsoever during the course of a match, half time included for the same reasons - to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity. 

I don't care if it is his boss, he has no right to be in that area during the course of a game & should certainly not be speaking to a match official who is active in a game.

I have no doubt about Stuart Attwell's integrity nor Neil Swarbricks integrity however there is an inbuilt protection for a reason for the on field match officials that should extend to every single member of their team, including those closed up in a little room in Stockley Park.
« Last Edit: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:35 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #927 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:42 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!

He is the boss as far as VAR implementation is concerned, therefore, that being the case ---why should the boss not talk to his workforce because that is exactly what he is doing and everything else is just speculation.

Basically because there is a time & a place and a chit chat during half time is not the right time & place.  It doesn't matter if the conversation was how's the wife & kids, you should have seen the dog trying to run up a steep muddy hill he other day, looked like this (hence the running simulation...) or whatever because the very nature of it occurring is enough to cast doubt over the integrity of the VAR for anyone looking to cast doubt over it.  Why put themselves in that position? It is stupid. The very fact it can't be heard is what causes the speculation & can lead to doubt being cast.

Match assessors/observers are not allowed entry to the referees dressing room during half time, even UEFA match Delegates are not allowed any access to them, unless there is a major security issue that could affect the game & then they have to be accompanied by representatives from both teams. This is in place in the main to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity.

The VAR & AVAR are part of that match officials team and like the onfield officials no-one should have any access to them whatsoever during the course of a match, half time included for the same reasons - to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity. 

I don't care if it is his boss, he has no right to be in that area during the course of a game & should certainly not be speaking to a match official who is active in a game.

I have no doubt about Stuart Attwell's integrity nor Neil Swarbricks integrity however there is an inbuilt protection for a reason for the on field match officials that should extend to every single member of their team, including those closed up in a little room in Stockley Park.

Thanks for the info bmb, however, in that case they really need to install security cameras within the VAR rooms and ensure that these have a direct feed to the various stadiums during the course of the match so that the managers can see that there is no outside interference whatsoever from anyone including the tea lady.  Rules are rules.
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Scally Bob

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #928 on: Sat 28 Nov 2020 18:10 »
Can anybody explain how no part of the Brighton defender is beyond his right foot? The Law is any part of the body except the arm can play an attacker onside. It would be physically impossible for none of that defender to be ahead of his foot. Absolutely farcical.
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Hendo

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #929 on: Sat 28 Nov 2020 19:52 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round
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