Author Topic: The VAR thread  (Read 37607 times)

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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #945 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 13:33 »
VAR are turning these tight offside situations into a farce and I suggest bringing the game into disrepute. This is what I think needs to happen and happen fast.
 It is stated unequivocally that level is ONSIDE. I would issue guidance which employs a generous definition of level and which states that being level is defined as any part of the torsos overlapping. Personally I always thought the "daylight" convention was a perfectly sensible one.

Let us go back to first principles as to why there is an offside rule in the first place. Surely it was there so ensure that the match moved up and down the pitch without attackers parking themselves in the opponents half in an opportunistic way. It was not designed to rule out an attacker's toe being marginally further to the goal than a defender's because the principle is still adhered to. Extremely tight offside calls ( even with the use of technology which is, of course, not fool proof ) should favour the attacker.

I agree with you about the principle of why the offside law was introduced, but I guess the challenge is how you effectively incorporate that into a more precise form of measurement that is now used.

Tight offsides with VAR are nothing new. I remember Juan Mata having a goal disallowed for Man Utd at Huddersfield in February 2018, nearly three years ago. I've consistently said that I won't criticise an individual VAR for an offside offside decision or complain about a particular one that is made (unless it's shown to be 100% wrong, like if they missed a defender further back etc.) - we've basically had the example of what might happen and it then just becomes a matter of time before a similar case inevitably repeats itself. I'm sure it will happen many more times before the end of the season and the same cycle of discussion will be replicated.

There are two possible developments that IFAB/FIFA are looking into as far as I'm aware:

The first relates to making the judgement of offside automated rather than requiring VAR to plot points and draw lines. This seems highly likely to come in, probably in the next two years before 2022 World Cup. This would see decisions made much more quickly (I think the 2-3 minute wait for an offside is one of the biggest problems) but obviously would still have pretty tight measurements.

The second is the idea, discussed previously on here, that if any part of the attacker is level with the second-last defender, they are instead judged onside. I believe this is currently being trialled. Arsene Wenger advocated this approach but I think has since voiced the concern it might give too much of an advantage to the striker. There's also the question of how easy/difficult this is to judge without VAR. I think it will probably take longer for such a fundamental law change to be considered and approved.


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carrowman

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #946 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 13:38 »
Now that Norwich are back in the Championship and even though we have been unable to watch any match in person and having to rely sometimes on a very basic ifollow stream it really is so so much more pleasurable knowing that once a decision has been made that is it, no waiting for someone elsewhere wasting time reviewing it.
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Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #947 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 16:32 »
VAR are turning these tight offside situations into a farce and I suggest bringing the game into disrepute. This is what I think needs to happen and happen fast.
 It is stated unequivocally that level is ONSIDE. I would issue guidance which employs a generous definition of level and which states that being level is defined as any part of the torsos overlapping. Personally I always thought the "daylight" convention was a perfectly sensible one.

Let us go back to first principles as to why there is an offside rule in the first place. Surely it was there so ensure that the match moved up and down the pitch without attackers parking themselves in the opponents half in an opportunistic way. It was not designed to rule out an attacker's toe being marginally further to the goal than a defender's because the principle is still adhered to. Extremely tight offside calls ( even with the use of technology which is, of course, not fool proof ) should favour the attacker.

I agree with you about the principle of why the offside law was introduced, but I guess the challenge is how you effectively incorporate that into a more precise form of measurement that is now used.

Tight offsides with VAR are nothing new. I remember Juan Mata having a goal disallowed for Man Utd at Huddersfield in February 2018, nearly three years ago. I've consistently said that I won't criticise an individual VAR for an offside offside decision or complain about a particular one that is made (unless it's shown to be 100% wrong, like if they missed a defender further back etc.) - we've basically had the example of what might happen and it then just becomes a matter of time before a similar case inevitably repeats itself. I'm sure it will happen many more times before the end of the season and the same cycle of discussion will be replicated.

There are two possible developments that IFAB/FIFA are looking into as far as I'm aware:

The first relates to making the judgement of offside automated rather than requiring VAR to plot points and draw lines. This seems highly likely to come in, probably in the next two years before 2022 World Cup. This would see decisions made much more quickly (I think the 2-3 minute wait for an offside is one of the biggest problems) but obviously would still have pretty tight measurements.

The second is the idea, discussed previously on here, that if any part of the attacker is level with the second-last defender, they are instead judged onside. I believe this is currently being trialled. Arsene Wenger advocated this approach but I think has since voiced the concern it might give too much of an advantage to the striker. There's also the question of how easy/difficult this is to judge without VAR. I think it will probably take longer for such a fundamental law change to be considered and approved.

Are they also looking at the fact that, with ARs not flagging immediately that a player is offside, there have been several instances of play continuing and the offending side winning corners as a result. This is now happening more than I have ever known and it must be relevant to the instructions given that, should a goal be scored or a penalty awarded, then VAR will check for offside. It is not good enough and, yet again, I feel sorry for the officials who a re being restricted from doing their job.
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #948 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 21:45 »
VAR are turning these tight offside situations into a farce and I suggest bringing the game into disrepute. This is what I think needs to happen and happen fast.
 It is stated unequivocally that level is ONSIDE. I would issue guidance which employs a generous definition of level and which states that being level is defined as any part of the torsos overlapping. Personally I always thought the "daylight" convention was a perfectly sensible one.

Let us go back to first principles as to why there is an offside rule in the first place. Surely it was there so ensure that the match moved up and down the pitch without attackers parking themselves in the opponents half in an opportunistic way. It was not designed to rule out an attacker's toe being marginally further to the goal than a defender's because the principle is still adhered to. Extremely tight offside calls ( even with the use of technology which is, of course, not fool proof ) should favour the attacker.

I agree with you about the principle of why the offside law was introduced, but I guess the challenge is how you effectively incorporate that into a more precise form of measurement that is now used.

Tight offsides with VAR are nothing new. I remember Juan Mata having a goal disallowed for Man Utd at Huddersfield in February 2018, nearly three years ago. I've consistently said that I won't criticise an individual VAR for an offside offside decision or complain about a particular one that is made (unless it's shown to be 100% wrong, like if they missed a defender further back etc.) - we've basically had the example of what might happen and it then just becomes a matter of time before a similar case inevitably repeats itself. I'm sure it will happen many more times before the end of the season and the same cycle of discussion will be replicated.

There are two possible developments that IFAB/FIFA are looking into as far as I'm aware:

The first relates to making the judgement of offside automated rather than requiring VAR to plot points and draw lines. This seems highly likely to come in, probably in the next two years before 2022 World Cup. This would see decisions made much more quickly (I think the 2-3 minute wait for an offside is one of the biggest problems) but obviously would still have pretty tight measurements.

The second is the idea, discussed previously on here, that if any part of the attacker is level with the second-last defender, they are instead judged onside. I believe this is currently being trialled. Arsene Wenger advocated this approach but I think has since voiced the concern it might give too much of an advantage to the striker. There's also the question of how easy/difficult this is to judge without VAR. I think it will probably take longer for such a fundamental law change to be considered and approved.

Are they also looking at the fact that, with ARs not flagging immediately that a player is offside, there have been several instances of play continuing and the offending side winning corners as a result. This is now happening more than I have ever known and it must be relevant to the instructions given that, should a goal be scored or a penalty awarded, then VAR will check for offside. It is not good enough and, yet again, I feel sorry for the officials who a re being restricted from doing their job.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying?

The instruction to assistants in VAR games is if they think it's offside they should delay the flag if there is a chance of a goal - but they should always raise it at the end of the move.

If a goal is scored, the decision will either be offside or a goal, depending on VAR judgement.

If a goal isn't scored and ball goes out for corner etc, then the decision should be offside.

nemesis

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #949 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 22:41 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round

You can guarantee because it is the media darlings who are now complaining, that this will gain some traction.
I thought this forum was for discussing refereeing rather than for airing club bias. Liverpool have had eight decisions against them through VAR this season, no other club has more than four. Liverpool have also lost one of their key players for the season and VAR failed to identify the violent conduct that caused the injury.

My question was how could the Brighton defender contort himself so that no part of his body was beyond the line?

The Salah offside looks the 'correct' decision to me.

I think most of the VAR decisions that have gone against Liverpool have been correct. Pickford should certainly have been sent off though.

You haven't answered that reasonable question about contortion. Try it yourself, but make sure there's someone around to help you up.

Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #950 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 22:50 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round

You can guarantee because it is the media darlings who are now complaining, that this will gain some traction.
I thought this forum was for discussing refereeing rather than for airing club bias. Liverpool have had eight decisions against them through VAR this season, no other club has more than four. Liverpool have also lost one of their key players for the season and VAR failed to identify the violent conduct that caused the injury.

My question was how could the Brighton defender contort himself so that no part of his body was beyond the line?

The Salah offside looks the 'correct' decision to me.

I think most of the VAR decisions that have gone against Liverpool have been correct. Pickford should certainly have been sent off though.

You haven't answered that reasonable question about contortion. Try it yourself, but make sure there's someone around to help you up.

The defender's right foot looks to be furthest body part near the goal? - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/En8qYrqWMAABGnQ?format=jpg&name=large

Hendo

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #951 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 23:01 »
Will Klopp receive a similar sanction as Bilic for approaching and querying the officials on the pitch at the end?

NO

QuoCob

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #952 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 23:51 »
Will Klopp receive a similar sanction as Bilic for approaching and querying the officials on the pitch at the end?

NO

Why not?  Is it because he smiles whilst he is doing it?
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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #953 on: Mon 30 Nov 2020 08:51 »
How does VAR not award Wolves a penalty to overrule an injustice in Traore getting cautioned for diving ?  Once again no consistency in decisions, in fact I'll go further and say Marriner blatantly disregards guidelines both as VAR and when in the middle. 
Anyone think Luiz could have been sent off  for the challenge on Jimenez ? I'm surprised it hasn't been discussed.

Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #954 on: Mon 30 Nov 2020 09:35 »
Will Klopp receive a similar sanction as Bilic for approaching and querying the officials on the pitch at the end?

NO

Why not?  Is it because he smiles whilst he is doing it?

Klopp wasn't shown a red card which I guess makes a difference.
Rightly or wrongly, it generally seems more accepted for managers to speak to officials at full-time than half-time.

Ref Fan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #955 on: Mon 30 Nov 2020 10:58 »
Will Klopp receive a similar sanction as Bilic for approaching and querying the officials on the pitch at the end?

NO

Why not?  Is it because he smiles whilst he is doing it?

Klopp wasn't shown a red card which I guess makes a difference.
Rightly or wrongly, it generally seems more accepted for managers to speak to officials at full-time than half-time.

I see Halsey reckons the officials were weak not dealing with Klopp, and that the 'smile' is for the cameras while he's berating or sarcastically applauding the officials.

As regards the Traori YC for simulation, my initial reaction was the referee was correct.  The pundits on Sky after several replays concluded there was slight contact and then Traori dived accordingly.  We moan that we want to see referees take action for simulation and then if they make a mistake, however understandable, should we be so keen to berate them? If they do nothing - no penalty and no card for diving, it might be construed as weak although that can be a good decision. As for VAR, it's possible I suppose that Marriner noted the contact but didn't consider it enough to justify a penalty.

Whatever Nuno said to Michael Oliver at the end of the game - maybe about the Traori YC - it was good to see it ended in smiles all round.  A change from Klopps antics, but then his side had just lost 2 points! 


Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #956 on: Mon 30 Nov 2020 11:02 »
VAR are turning these tight offside situations into a farce and I suggest bringing the game into disrepute. This is what I think needs to happen and happen fast.
 It is stated unequivocally that level is ONSIDE. I would issue guidance which employs a generous definition of level and which states that being level is defined as any part of the torsos overlapping. Personally I always thought the "daylight" convention was a perfectly sensible one.

Let us go back to first principles as to why there is an offside rule in the first place. Surely it was there so ensure that the match moved up and down the pitch without attackers parking themselves in the opponents half in an opportunistic way. It was not designed to rule out an attacker's toe being marginally further to the goal than a defender's because the principle is still adhered to. Extremely tight offside calls ( even with the use of technology which is, of course, not fool proof ) should favour the attacker.

I agree with you about the principle of why the offside law was introduced, but I guess the challenge is how you effectively incorporate that into a more precise form of measurement that is now used.

Tight offsides with VAR are nothing new. I remember Juan Mata having a goal disallowed for Man Utd at Huddersfield in February 2018, nearly three years ago. I've consistently said that I won't criticise an individual VAR for an offside offside decision or complain about a particular one that is made (unless it's shown to be 100% wrong, like if they missed a defender further back etc.) - we've basically had the example of what might happen and it then just becomes a matter of time before a similar case inevitably repeats itself. I'm sure it will happen many more times before the end of the season and the same cycle of discussion will be replicated.

There are two possible developments that IFAB/FIFA are looking into as far as I'm aware:

The first relates to making the judgement of offside automated rather than requiring VAR to plot points and draw lines. This seems highly likely to come in, probably in the next two years before 2022 World Cup. This would see decisions made much more quickly (I think the 2-3 minute wait for an offside is one of the biggest problems) but obviously would still have pretty tight measurements.

The second is the idea, discussed previously on here, that if any part of the attacker is level with the second-last defender, they are instead judged onside. I believe this is currently being trialled. Arsene Wenger advocated this approach but I think has since voiced the concern it might give too much of an advantage to the striker. There's also the question of how easy/difficult this is to judge without VAR. I think it will probably take longer for such a fundamental law change to be considered and approved.

Are they also looking at the fact that, with ARs not flagging immediately that a player is offside, there have been several instances of play continuing and the offending side winning corners as a result. This is now happening more than I have ever known and it must be relevant to the instructions given that, should a goal be scored or a penalty awarded, then VAR will check for offside. It is not good enough and, yet again, I feel sorry for the officials who a re being restricted from doing their job.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying?

The instruction to assistants in VAR games is if they think it's offside they should delay the flag if there is a chance of a goal - but they should always raise it at the end of the move.

If a goal is scored, the decision will either be offside or a goal, depending on VAR judgement.

If a goal isn't scored and ball goes out for corner etc, then the decision should be offside.

I know what the instruction is, however, this does not always happen which is the point that I was making. Players are told to play to the whistle, nothing has changed there.
In the past an AR would raise the flag, however, play could continue if the referee was happy that it should do so.
There was always the odd mistake, however, I thought that the whole purpose of VAR was to eradicate these mistakes ---put quite simply ---it doesn't.
Referee's decision used to be final!

Whistleblower

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #957 on: Mon 30 Nov 2020 13:41 »
Sarcastically applauding match officials is cheap, disrespectful and frankly pathetically puerile. I had thought better of Klopp ( if indeed he was applauding sarcastically which it certainly  looked as if he was ) although I have never quite been as taken-in as some by the 'goody two-shoes' demeanour which he portrays. I hope on reflection he repents of his action.  A disagreement expressed forthrightly is often far better than sarcastic applause in my book.

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #958 on: Mon 30 Nov 2020 13:54 »
Sarcastically applauding match officials is cheap, disrespectful and frankly pathetically puerile. I had thought better of Klopp ( if indeed he was applauding sarcastically which it certainly  looked as if he was ) although I have never quite been as taken-in as some by the 'goody two-shoes' demeanour which he portrays. I hope on reflection he repents of his action.  A disagreement expressed forthrightly is often far better than sarcastic applause in my book.

I could list a handful of other notable incidents where Klopp should have been punished but wasn’t, considering some other PL managers were then punished for similar but less offences.
The big one being when he ran on the pitch after Origi’s late goal against Everton.

Seems to be double standards for him!

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #959 on: Mon 30 Nov 2020 19:50 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round

You can guarantee because it is the media darlings who are now complaining, that this will gain some traction.
I thought this forum was for discussing refereeing rather than for airing club bias. Liverpool have had eight decisions against them through VAR this season, no other club has more than four. Liverpool have also lost one of their key players for the season and VAR failed to identify the violent conduct that caused the injury.

My question was how could the Brighton defender contort himself so that no part of his body was beyond the line?

I'd need to see some stats on this, but I would imagine a team like Liverpool get themselves into more attacking positions than the likes of Burnley, so the law of averages suggests there are more decisions at that end of the field that will go to VAR when they're involved.

I know VAR also includes defensive situations, but like I said, your figure of eight needs some context.
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