Author Topic: The VAR thread  (Read 33118 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

DublinRef

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #930 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:12 »
We finally have the first penalty awarded for a player kicking the ball at a defenders hand! Congratulations Anthony Taylor  ;D

Dermot Gallagher has always said that Stockley Park was sealed off and there was no communication with the outside world whilst the VAR officials were in operation. Clearly wrong as Sky have just shown Neil Swarbrick in there at half-time speaking to Stuart Attwell - and making lots of gestures with his arms!



Footage of Neil Swarbrick inside the VAR area earlier.

https://twitter.com/footballdaily/status/1325453036773322755

Maybe people will think I'm overreacting, say they're all colleagues, talk regularly, its an informal chat etc etc. But I think that is somewhat inappropriate, for two reasons -

1. PGMOL have, from what I've seen, said that the VAR is essentially sealed away during the game, this clip throws that into doubt even if it is at half time
2. The contents of the conversation being unknown will lead people to conclude that the VAR is influenced or advised by Swarbrick, this raises obvious questions over whether or not Swarbrick or others have any interaction during the game itself

I am not for one second suggesting that the latter is actually happening, my main point is the optics of this - it could lead one to doubt, somewhat, the integrity of the process


Completely agree. If he has got it wrong, and I have not watched so offer zero opinion on that, then there is a time & place for Neil Swarbrick to give him guidance* & half time is not that time. It is a time when he should not be anywhere near him for any reason whatsoever if for no other reason than to protect the integrity of the VAR & whole process.  *We have no way to tell what is being said so I'm not assuming that is what is happening in the clip, just a suggestion.

If Stuart has asked for guidance because he really doesn't know what the decision should be because the HB law is absolutely dreadful and the very strict harsh FIFA guidelined interpretations make it even more so, then the only people he should discuss it with are the on field referee and maybe get input from the AVAR as well. They are a legitimate member of the team. I'm sure he could 'play' the system enough to be able to say over the mic, do you know what, I have no idea if it is or isn't, can you do an onfield review and call it how you see it.  Rather that than images coming out that look bad whichever way you look at them.  Any further guidance either he wants to seek with his boss or his boss wants to seek with him must not occur until after the final whistle has gone.

Totally agree, while I am not in any doubt whatsoever of anyone's integrity as individuals, I do think the integrity of the process itself is somewhat compromised by this.

I see from Readingfan that Dale Johnson (who seems like he's honorary PGMOL spokesperson) has clarified this is a regular occurrence but I think official clarification is needed from the PGMOL on the nature and purpose of Swarbrick's communication with the VAR officials and how/if it is allowed under the protocols.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

DublinRef

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #931 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:17 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!

He is the boss as far as VAR implementation is concerned, therefore, that being the case ---why should the boss not talk to his workforce because that is exactly what he is doing and everything else is just speculation.

I suppose as his workforce is in the business of making decisions it is fair to speculate he is discussing the validity of decisions. I think this muddies the water as to who has a say in what the VAR recommends to the referee, does Swarbrick make comments to the VAR during the game? Does anyone else speak to the VAR at any stage during the match? More overarchingly, is the VAR being influenced by other parties during the game?

While I would be very confident the answer to both those questions is no - this interaction does suggest that the VAR is not isolated from the world as the PGMOL seemed to previously suggest and as, in my opinion, should be the way they operate.
Agree Agree x 1 View List

bmb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • Gender: Female
  • Causing mischief & mayhem!!
  • Location: Somewhere between Poole & Budapest!
    • View Profile
    • Hungarian Football
  • Referee Level: Assessor
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #932 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:29 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!

He is the boss as far as VAR implementation is concerned, therefore, that being the case ---why should the boss not talk to his workforce because that is exactly what he is doing and everything else is just speculation.

Basically because there is a time & a place and a chit chat during half time is not the right time & place.  It doesn't matter if the conversation was how's the wife & kids, you should have seen the dog trying to run up a steep muddy hill he other day, looked like this (hence the running simulation...) or whatever because the very nature of it occurring is enough to cast doubt over the integrity of the VAR for anyone looking to cast doubt over it.  Why put themselves in that position? It is stupid. The very fact it can't be heard is what causes the speculation & can lead to doubt being cast.

Match assessors/observers are not allowed entry to the referees dressing room during half time, even UEFA match Delegates are not allowed any access to them, unless there is a major security issue that could affect the game & then they have to be accompanied by representatives from both teams. This is in place in the main to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity.

The VAR & AVAR are part of that match officials team and like the onfield officials no-one should have any access to them whatsoever during the course of a match, half time included for the same reasons - to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity. 

I don't care if it is his boss, he has no right to be in that area during the course of a game & should certainly not be speaking to a match official who is active in a game.

I have no doubt about Stuart Attwell's integrity nor Neil Swarbricks integrity however there is an inbuilt protection for a reason for the on field match officials that should extend to every single member of their team, including those closed up in a little room in Stockley Park.
« Last Edit: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:35 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel
Agree Agree x 4 View List

Ashington46

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 421
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ashington, Northumberland
    • View Profile
  • Referee Level: Retired for years!
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #933 on: Sun 08 Nov 2020 22:42 »
Dale Johnson on twitter says it's common place for Swarbrick to go and talk to the VAR officials at half-time.

I agree that it shouldn't be though.

What if a similar incident had happened in the second half and hadn't been referred? Everyone would have been speculating that Swarbrick had influenced Attwell (whether correct or not.)

There's scope in the VAR protocol for a player to be sent off later on if VAR sees an incident earlier missed but again how can this be allowed to happen if there's potential contact with the 'outside world'.

There's plenty of time for analysis and feedback after the match. 15 minutes at half-time isn't long enough considering the problems that many of them have!

He is the boss as far as VAR implementation is concerned, therefore, that being the case ---why should the boss not talk to his workforce because that is exactly what he is doing and everything else is just speculation.

Basically because there is a time & a place and a chit chat during half time is not the right time & place.  It doesn't matter if the conversation was how's the wife & kids, you should have seen the dog trying to run up a steep muddy hill he other day, looked like this (hence the running simulation...) or whatever because the very nature of it occurring is enough to cast doubt over the integrity of the VAR for anyone looking to cast doubt over it.  Why put themselves in that position? It is stupid. The very fact it can't be heard is what causes the speculation & can lead to doubt being cast.

Match assessors/observers are not allowed entry to the referees dressing room during half time, even UEFA match Delegates are not allowed any access to them, unless there is a major security issue that could affect the game & then they have to be accompanied by representatives from both teams. This is in place in the main to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity.

The VAR & AVAR are part of that match officials team and like the onfield officials no-one should have any access to them whatsoever during the course of a match, half time included for the same reasons - to prevent outside influence and preserve integrity. 

I don't care if it is his boss, he has no right to be in that area during the course of a game & should certainly not be speaking to a match official who is active in a game.

I have no doubt about Stuart Attwell's integrity nor Neil Swarbricks integrity however there is an inbuilt protection for a reason for the on field match officials that should extend to every single member of their team, including those closed up in a little room in Stockley Park.

Thanks for the info bmb, however, in that case they really need to install security cameras within the VAR rooms and ensure that these have a direct feed to the various stadiums during the course of the match so that the managers can see that there is no outside interference whatsoever from anyone including the tea lady.  Rules are rules.
Referee's decision used to be final!
Like Like x 2 View List

Scally Bob

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #934 on: Sat 28 Nov 2020 18:10 »
Can anybody explain how no part of the Brighton defender is beyond his right foot? The Law is any part of the body except the arm can play an attacker onside. It would be physically impossible for none of that defender to be ahead of his foot. Absolutely farcical.
Agree Agree x 2 View List

Hendo

  • RTR Veterans
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 511
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #935 on: Sat 28 Nov 2020 19:52 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round
Agree Agree x 1 View List

ajb95

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #936 on: Sat 28 Nov 2020 22:55 »
I have small sympathy for Liverpool who have benefitted more than most from VAR since it’s inception. They had that penalty against West Ham earlier in the season that was just as bad so evened itself out

flipmode

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Sydney
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #937 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 00:51 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round

You can guarantee because it is the media darlings who are now complaining, that this will gain some traction.
David Silva olé.

bmb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • Gender: Female
  • Causing mischief & mayhem!!
  • Location: Somewhere between Poole & Budapest!
    • View Profile
    • Hungarian Football
  • Referee Level: Assessor
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #938 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 02:14 »
https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1332830627519991809

For me this is not football. I'm so glad we are so far behind in the NBI and don't yet have VAR!  If you have to start using 3D mapping tech aligned to the pitch or whatever the %^$£ it is then, well I just don't know! There is plenty I could say but then I'd have to ban myself for breaching the forum rules!  Give me the good old 97% accuracy of the top AR's over this any day.
« Last Edit: Sun 29 Nov 2020 02:16 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel
Agree Agree x 3 View List

Scally Bob

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #939 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 07:33 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round

You can guarantee because it is the media darlings who are now complaining, that this will gain some traction.
I thought this forum was for discussing refereeing rather than for airing club bias. Liverpool have had eight decisions against them through VAR this season, no other club has more than four. Liverpool have also lost one of their key players for the season and VAR failed to identify the violent conduct that caused the injury.

My question was how could the Brighton defender contort himself so that no part of his body was beyond the line?

Readingfan

  • RTR Veterans
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1,624
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #940 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 09:13 »
Liverpool for one on the wrong end of VAR decisions today - all I hasten to add correct ones too.
A spiked interview by Klopp complaint about various things afterwards and Jordan Henderson saying he would scrap VAR. How the leopard has changed its spots all of a sudden!
What goes round come round

You can guarantee because it is the media darlings who are now complaining, that this will gain some traction.
I thought this forum was for discussing refereeing rather than for airing club bias. Liverpool have had eight decisions against them through VAR this season, no other club has more than four. Liverpool have also lost one of their key players for the season and VAR failed to identify the violent conduct that caused the injury.

My question was how could the Brighton defender contort himself so that no part of his body was beyond the line?

The Salah offside looks the 'correct' decision to me.

I think most of the VAR decisions that have gone against Liverpool have been correct. Pickford should certainly have been sent off though.

Agree Agree x 2 View List

QuoCob

  • RTR Veterans
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 466
  • Gender: Male
  • L5/Ageing but still active...
  • Location: Hampshire
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #941 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 10:43 »
Will Klopp receive a similar sanction as Bilic for approaching and querying the officials on the pitch at the end?
“They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.”  Laurence Binyon
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Whistleblower

  • RTR Veterans
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 734
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #942 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 11:17 »
VAR are turning these tight offside situations into a farce and I suggest bringing the game into disrepute. This is what I think needs to happen and happen fast.
 It is stated unequivocally that level is ONSIDE. I would issue guidance which employs a generous definition of level and which states that being level is defined as any part of the torsos overlapping. Personally I always thought the "daylight" convention was a perfectly sensible one.

Let us go back to first principles as to why there is an offside rule in the first place. Surely it was there so ensure that the match moved up and down the pitch without attackers parking themselves in the opponents half in an opportunistic way. It was not designed to rule out an attacker's toe being marginally further to the goal than a defender's because the principle is still adhered to. Extremely tight offside calls ( even with the use of technology which is, of course, not fool proof ) should favour the attacker.
Like Like x 1 Agree Agree x 5 View List

RCG

  • RTR Veterans
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
    • View Profile
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #943 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 12:39 »
As argued previously. "Daylight" gave the attackers a chance to move slightly before defenders, enhancing the attacking move. Now, attackers have to start a full body width behind to ensure no scoring part is too advanced. The benefit of doubt as swung very much the other (wrong?) way
Agree Agree x 2 View List

bmb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • Gender: Female
  • Causing mischief & mayhem!!
  • Location: Somewhere between Poole & Budapest!
    • View Profile
    • Hungarian Football
  • Referee Level: Assessor
Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #944 on: Sun 29 Nov 2020 13:10 »
I thought this forum was for discussing refereeing rather than for airing club bias.

It is. Can people please save their club bias for the various club fan forums please. This is not the place for it.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel