Author Topic: The VAR thread  (Read 33118 times)

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nemesis

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #45 on: Tue 08 Jan 2019 15:26 »
We are back to was it a clear and obvious error? From TV you can only judge what contact has been seen. Would be nice to think they could suggest exaggerated movement but i doubt it. Could we 100% say it was not a penalty?

No, far more like 1000%  !


Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #46 on: Tue 08 Jan 2019 16:08 »

Why do VAR referees have to be actual referees?  Opening up the position to those who are way short of those fitness levels and may not have the man-management skills of referees, such as they are, will give a massively larger pool from which to source the very best at making VAR decisions. It's such a different skill that it's unlikely the best at one will also be the best at the other.

Agree, as long as the final decision remains with the on field official to retain their ability to interpret the Law as is required and appropriate.

Am I correct in thinking that none of the VAR decisions made this weekend were actually reviewed by the onfield official?
I was at Burnley on Saturday and the whole situation was farcical. Those of us who actually paid to go to the game had any idea what was happening because Simon Hooper just stood in the penalty area and then, after about 90 seconds, he blew the whistle which Vydra thought was the signal to take the penalty only then to be stopped in his tracks by Hooper's raised arm, quickly followed by the AR's raised flag and offside was given --not against Vydra but against Sam Vokes who had not interfered with play at all ---the ball having gone way over his head.
At no point did Simon Hooper go to look at the incident and, on viewing the other incidents, I don't think that any other onfield official reviewed a decision.

Is this going to be the normal procedure? 
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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #47 on: Tue 08 Jan 2019 16:28 »

Why do VAR referees have to be actual referees?  Opening up the position to those who are way short of those fitness levels and may not have the man-management skills of referees, such as they are, will give a massively larger pool from which to source the very best at making VAR decisions. It's such a different skill that it's unlikely the best at one will also be the best at the other.

Agree, as long as the final decision remains with the on field official to retain their ability to interpret the Law as is required and appropriate.

Am I correct in thinking that none of the VAR decisions made this weekend were actually reviewed by the onfield official?
I was at Burnley on Saturday and the whole situation was farcical. Those of us who actually paid to go to the game had any idea what was happening because Simon Hooper just stood in the penalty area and then, after about 90 seconds, he blew the whistle which Vydra thought was the signal to take the penalty only then to be stopped in his tracks by Hooper's raised arm, quickly followed by the AR's raised flag and offside was given --not against Vydra but against Sam Vokes who had not interfered with play at all ---the ball having gone way over his head.
At no point did Simon Hooper go to look at the incident and, on viewing the other incidents, I don't think that any other onfield official reviewed a decision.

Is this going to be the normal procedure?

I'm pretty sure that offside was given against Vydra. Hence there was no need for the referee t o look at the monitor.

I think the procedure in England will generally be that the referee does not look at the monitor but accepts the information from the VAR.

I know there has been mixed views on this. Personally I generally think it helps for the referee to go and look - the radio commentators for the Palace V Grimsby game were quite confused by Atkinson suddenly pulling a red card out after he'd shown a yellow. They were asking if it was for dissent, etc.

I think going to the monitor can help with the referee's credibility, particularly when it's the second minute of a game, and make it clearer what is happening (it would be different if the officials were mic'ed up).

Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #48 on: Tue 08 Jan 2019 18:43 »

Why do VAR referees have to be actual referees?  Opening up the position to those who are way short of those fitness levels and may not have the man-management skills of referees, such as they are, will give a massively larger pool from which to source the very best at making VAR decisions. It's such a different skill that it's unlikely the best at one will also be the best at the other.

Agree, as long as the final decision remains with the on field official to retain their ability to interpret the Law as is required and appropriate.

Am I correct in thinking that none of the VAR decisions made this weekend were actually reviewed by the onfield official?
I was at Burnley on Saturday and the whole situation was farcical. Those of us who actually paid to go to the game had any idea what was happening because Simon Hooper just stood in the penalty area and then, after about 90 seconds, he blew the whistle which Vydra thought was the signal to take the penalty only then to be stopped in his tracks by Hooper's raised arm, quickly followed by the AR's raised flag and offside was given --not against Vydra but against Sam Vokes who had not interfered with play at all ---the ball having gone way over his head.
At no point did Simon Hooper go to look at the incident and, on viewing the other incidents, I don't think that any other onfield official reviewed a decision.

Is this going to be the normal procedure?

I'm pretty sure that offside was given against Vydra. Hence there was no need for the referee t o look at the monitor.

I think the procedure in England will generally be that the referee does not look at the monitor but accepts the information from the VAR.

I know there has been mixed views on this. Personally I generally think it helps for the referee to go and look - the radio commentators for the Palace V Grimsby game were quite confused by Atkinson suddenly pulling a red card out after he'd shown a yellow. They were asking if it was for dissent, etc.

I think going to the monitor can help with the referee's credibility, particularly when it's the second minute of a game, and make it clearer what is happening (it would be different if the officials were mic'ed up).

Interestingly, Simon Hooper was quite precise about where the resulting free kick should be taken and it was outside the area where Sam Vokes had been ruled offside which caused even more confusion to those of us in attendance.
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bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #49 on: Tue 08 Jan 2019 20:21 »
If they are not going to go to the monitor to do a review themselves then they need to signal very clearly that they are taking advice from the VAR over the headset. Clear enough for it to be recognised right back as far as row z & beyond! I know the majority of us hate the over dramatic signalling that can occur but perhaps this is a situation where it needs that type of signal.  If fans/managers & players see a very clear signal then they will at least know VAR is being consulted, even if they don't understand why & will know a decision may be overturned. I do agree with Readingfan that it seems to generally help if the referee goes to the monitor, not least because at least everyone knows there is a degree of VAR intervention.

VAR is still new though and the kinks are gradually being ironed out, in theory.  It's not something we are used to yet, whatever our role in the game. As it is used more widely it will become more understood, pauses will be recognised better etc.  Our referees will also settle into a routine that works better with it, they are still also finding their feet with it.  Give it a couple of years and we will all wonder what the early fuss was about.  I watch a fair few games in the Saudi league where VAR has already been used for a couple of seasons & they seem to have it in a good routine, the crowd know if it's being consulted either by monitor, which is very obvious, or just over the comms & don't seem to bat an eye over it or get confused. We will reach that stage but it takes time to get used to and for it to be accepted as the norm.
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jad

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #50 on: Thu 10 Jan 2019 15:58 »
bmb may be right, but it is interesting that in Italy there have been more arguments over the use of VAR this season than last.  In my view the debate over the use of VAR is complicated by two widespread fallacies:
1. That technology produces better decisions merely by the fact of being technology.  But with cricket and rugby union it is becoming clear that technology introduces distortions of its own, and it is likely to be same with football, especially when incidents are reviewed in slow motion.
2. That for every incident there is one correct response.   Yet five minutes on this forum will reveal that qualified and well-informed observers can reach diametrically opposed conclusions even after reviewing an incident more often and in a more relaxed environment than is ever going to be possible during a high-profile football match.

If used properly, VAR should correct a few egregious errors and resolve some borderline off-sides, but it would be unwise to expect more than that.  It certainly won't put an end to controversies, but instead will shift the focus onto the use of the system itself, as is also becoming clear on this forum.  And why should it be otherwise?  I somehow can't imagine the day when a pundit turns up in the TV studio and says: 'Right, Gary, nothing to talk about today: VAR has resolved everything.'       
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nemesis

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #51 on: Thu 10 Jan 2019 21:12 »
bmb may be right, but it is interesting that in Italy there have been more arguments over the use of VAR this season than last.  In my view the debate over the use of VAR is complicated by two widespread fallacies:
1. That technology produces better decisions merely by the fact of being technology.  But with cricket and rugby union it is becoming clear that technology introduces distortions of its own, and it is likely to be same with football, especially when incidents are reviewed in slow motion.
2. That for every incident there is one correct response.   Yet five minutes on this forum will reveal that qualified and well-informed observers can reach diametrically opposed conclusions even after reviewing an incident more often and in a more relaxed environment than is ever going to be possible during a high-profile football match.

If used properly, VAR should correct a few egregious errors and resolve some borderline off-sides, but it would be unwise to expect more than that.  It certainly won't put an end to controversies, but instead will shift the focus onto the use of the system itself, as is also becoming clear on this forum.  And why should it be otherwise?  I somehow can't imagine the day when a pundit turns up in the TV studio and says: 'Right, Gary, nothing to talk about today: VAR has resolved everything.'     

Errors don't get any more egregious than that one at Fulham and that was not corrected, therefore it follows that it was not being used properly. It clearly needs better people reviewing it, not the mates of those causing the egregiousness.

bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #52 on: Thu 10 Jan 2019 22:15 »
but it is interesting that in Italy there have been more arguments over the use of VAR this season than last.

I do wonder how much of that stems from this seemingly widespread belief by fans/managers/players/media in particular that VAR is the holy grail to ensure that 100% of referee decisions are correct in every game. Something that most on here will agree on is an impossible to obtain figure yet anyone who has never picked up a whistle seems to believe is achievable!
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flipmode

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #53 on: Mon 14 Jan 2019 00:55 »
I watch a fair few games in the Saudi league where VAR has already been used for a couple of seasons & they seem to have it in a good routine, the crowd know if it's being consulted either by monitor, which is very obvious, or just over the comms & don't seem to bat an eye over it or get confused. We will reach that stage but it takes time to get used to and for it to be accepted as the norm.
They should send a delegation to Australia as the referees in the A-League still are able to mess it up. You make a very good point bmb, about the clarity of the decisions and VAR being referenced. I think that's what is such an issue out here that some (not all) of the referees don't convey the fact that they are reviewing VAR clearly enough. It also doesn't help that replays are shown on screen in the stadiums, which often adds to the drama.  ;D
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jad

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #54 on: Mon 14 Jan 2019 16:40 »
but it is interesting that in Italy there have been more arguments over the use of VAR this season than last.

I do wonder how much of that stems from this seemingly widespread belief by fans/managers/players/media in particular that VAR is the holy grail to ensure that 100% of referee decisions are correct in every game. Something that most on here will agree on is an impossible to obtain figure yet anyone who has never picked up a whistle seems to believe is achievable!

I am sure that's right, though it seems to be made worse by commentators not knowing or understanding the protocols.  Most complaints in Italy have been about VAR not being used when commentators thought it should have been.  But there is another point: I suspect that there is starting to be an expectation that when a referee chooses or is invited to review an incident on the pitch-side monitor, this will automatically result in the decision being changed.   
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bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #55 on: Mon 14 Jan 2019 17:40 »
but it is interesting that in Italy there have been more arguments over the use of VAR this season than last.

I do wonder how much of that stems from this seemingly widespread belief by fans/managers/players/media in particular that VAR is the holy grail to ensure that 100% of referee decisions are correct in every game. Something that most on here will agree on is an impossible to obtain figure yet anyone who has never picked up a whistle seems to believe is achievable!

I am sure that's right, though it seems to be made worse by commentators not knowing or understanding the protocols.  Most complaints in Italy have been about VAR not being used when commentators thought it should have been.  But there is another point: I suspect that there is starting to be an expectation that when a referee chooses or is invited to review an incident on the pitch-side monitor, this will automatically result in the decision being changed.   

Ah yes I forgot about the media and their lack of knowledge on the protocols,  it's about on par with their knowledge of the laws of the game i.e. non-existent in most cases!!
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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #56 on: Mon 14 Jan 2019 18:57 »
Dermot Gallagher said on Sky earlier that the lines for offsides are calibrated based on the feet of the players and don't take into account other parts of the body.

If so, this is surely a ludicrous and completely inaccurate way of implementing the system. FIFA used a 3D system during the World Cup - why is it not in place here?

Gallagher was quite dismissive about criticisms saying that people had wanted VAR so we couldn't criticise it now it was here but it does feel to me like the necessary investment hasn't been made to ensure the system is working as it should do.
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Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #57 on: Mon 14 Jan 2019 19:50 »
Dermot Gallagher said on Sky earlier that the lines for offsides are calibrated based on the feet of the players and don't take into account other parts of the body.

If so, this is surely a ludicrous and completely inaccurate way of implementing the system. FIFA used a 3D system during the World Cup - why is it not in place here?

Gallagher was quite dismissive about criticisms saying that people had wanted VAR so we couldn't criticise it now it was here but it does feel to me like the necessary investment hasn't been made to ensure the system is working as it should do.

Should he not have said that VAR was media driven and it was they that wanted something else to play with so that they could carp on even more about the officials?
It saddens me that the match between Spurs and Chelsea was a good game to watch for the neutral and the officials performed really well and enhanced the game as a spectacle, however, the talking point ever since has been VAR.
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dave26

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #58 on: Wed 16 Jan 2019 20:29 »
Well I don’t think the officials have covered themselves in glory tonight in the Southampton vs Derby match VAR call in the 40th minute when Derby scored , you are talking about the slightest of margins i thought it was supposed to be for clear and obvious errors or am I missing something

rustyref

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #59 on: Wed 16 Jan 2019 21:12 »
This keeps coming up.  Clear and obvious does NOT apply for offsides, it relates to when the decision could be in the opinion of the referee.

Offside is black and white, either the player was on or off, there is no opinion involved.