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Author Topic: The VAR thread  (Read 69220 times)

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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #240 on: Thu 20 Jun 2019 19:17 »
So do you want goalkeepers to be penalised if they come off their line or not? You have said that it was farcical and a disgrace but now seem to want it applied.

(And whilst I agree that there should be consistency where possible in the interpretations, there are different sets of laws being used because the Women's World Cup is using the new laws and the UEFA U21s is using the old ones.)

I would tend to agree with you that Scotland should have had a handball against Japan but even with VAR there is always the possibility of different interpretation or human error - you can never fully eliminate that. Arguing that VAR is bad because it didn't deliver the correct decision when it could have done seems a bit like arguing that ovens are a bad thing because people sometimes burn their dinner.

to be honest no i dont want the rule, but if its going to be there and implemented that they will be penalised for doing so, then you have to have the same rule for all, the same degree of measurement and not this human interpretation that we have seen so far. it will come to a head and a goalie will be sent off for a retake of two penalties and straying from his line twice.

Or, more likely in the short-term future, straying from her line!

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #241 on: Thu 20 Jun 2019 23:08 »
The VAR preparation for this tournament was useless, imo.  None of the refs referee in leagues where VAR is in use, it hasn't reached women's domestic leagues yet, and all they had by way of preparation was a 10 day/2 week course held just before the tournament started. Not real live games - manufactured scenarios with FIFA instructors. I don't think a single one of them had any VAR experience prior to that. My opinion is that FIFA in rushing to have parity (can't think of another way of putting it) between the men's tournaments and the women's one and making a decision so late on in the day has led to the referees being ill prepared and completely inexperienced with VAR.  They had 3 years of training for the tournament - VAR course was 2 weeks, they returned home one weekend and left the next weekend for the tournament. It might have been a couple of weeks but no more. I know Katalin Kulcsár also attended the men's/mixed VAR course in Qatar I think it was, a few weeks before that one, which was only a 4 maybe 5 day course. Her Hungarian assistant was with her & I believe the English ladies also attended as I remember Sian mentioning it. I don't know if any others were there or not, they may have been. They should not have thrust it on them at such short notice, it is unfair on them & I suspect has been instrumental in the problems that have now happened. Personally I think it is completely wrong that any referee has their first live use VAR game in a world cup, it's no wonder there are issues.

I'm very thankful Katalin has had 2 excellent games with very little need for VAR intervention! Long may that continue.  In the Jamaica v China game she did have a pen shout that she indicated no to (correctly) but was also talking on her comms asking her Hungarian assistant & the VAR team if there had been contact at the same time. She got a quick response and play carried on. It was the correct decision.  I have to admit I have only watched the games she has been involved in!
« Last Edit: Thu 20 Jun 2019 23:11 by bmb »
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #242 on: Thu 20 Jun 2019 23:38 »
I think that the experience of those operating as VARs is the most important element of the process and I believe all of those have extensive appearance, with most of them being VARs at the World Cup in Russia last summer.

I'm not sure that FIFA were initially planning on having VAR at this World Cup but there was a clamour for it and an argument that if the men's World Cup had it, why shouldn't the women's? I think the desire for VAR to be introduced has been understandable considering the poor standard that some of the officials have displayed.

I don't think that most of the issues have been due to a lack of VAR experience because I can't really think of an example where the protocol or process hasn't been followed. The VARs have sometimes been more pedantic than they have been previously but that is nothing to do with the referees themselves. I think some of the referees just aren't good enough.

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #243 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 00:38 »
sorry to sound like a broken record, but yet again VAR raises its ugly head in the Uruguay v Japan game, Cavani gets a penalty for kcking the studs of the japanese player whos attempting to block a shot? its not eliminating the bad decisions, nor is it producing clarity, its fast becoming a complete farce.
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QuoCob

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #244 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 08:35 »
The VAR preparation for this tournament was useless, imo.  None of the refs referee in leagues where VAR is in use, it hasn't reached women's domestic leagues yet, and all they had by way of preparation was a 10 day/2 week course held just before the tournament started. Not real live games - manufactured scenarios with FIFA instructors. I don't think a single one of them had any VAR experience prior to that. My opinion is that FIFA in rushing to have parity (can't think of another way of putting it) between the men's tournaments and the women's one and making a decision so late on in the day has led to the referees being ill prepared and completely inexperienced with VAR.  They had 3 years of training for the tournament - VAR course was 2 weeks, they returned home one weekend and left the next weekend for the tournament. It might have been a couple of weeks but no more. I know Katalin Kulcsár also attended the men's/mixed VAR course in Qatar I think it was, a few weeks before that one, which was only a 4 maybe 5 day course. Her Hungarian assistant was with her & I believe the English ladies also attended as I remember Sian mentioning it. I don't know if any others were there or not, they may have been. They should not have thrust it on them at such short notice, it is unfair on them & I suspect has been instrumental in the problems that have now happened. Personally I think it is completely wrong that any referee has their first live use VAR game in a world cup, it's no wonder there are issues.

I'm very thankful Katalin has had 2 excellent games with very little need for VAR intervention! Long may that continue.  In the Jamaica v China game she did have a pen shout that she indicated no to (correctly) but was also talking on her comms asking her Hungarian assistant & the VAR team if there had been contact at the same time. She got a quick response and play carried on. It was the correct decision.  I have to admit I have only watched the games she has been involved in!

Well, that explains a lot emphasising the fact that these officials have effectively been hung out to dry which is disgraceful.
What will the effect be on those officials who haven't 'coped' as well as others and have had their 'mistakes' caused by their relative inexperience with VAR highlighted so publicly?
« Last Edit: Fri 21 Jun 2019 08:48 by QuoCob »
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ajb95

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #245 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 08:46 »
Interesting that this thread is now 17 pages long....

Just to be clear in what is being said so I understand it clearly:

VAR has been brought in to certain situations to clear up any confusion and to determine the correct decision based on the evidence it has, including overturning clear and obvious errors by on field match officials.

Now in my short experience of VAR from world cups, champions league, Domestic Cups, and several leagues from around Europe including Germany l, Spain and Italy, clear and obvious hasn’t really come into the picture IMHO.
In the many instances of VAR intervention I have seen, very few decisions that have been overturned due to a clear and obvious error but most of the decisions have been overturned which myself and the majority of fans pundits  etc. have said were NOT a penalty.
The decision making process is practically the same - the difference is that there is an extra official watching it on a screen and the referees can have a look at pitch side. It remains subject to personal interpretation of the selected officials on the day. No matter how black and white the rules are!

Football is highly subjective with many of the laws being unclear and vague, so applying something such as VAR to a sport such as this is extremely difficult and inevitably increases confusion removes clarity which in turn ruins the viewing spectacle of the sport!
« Last Edit: Fri 21 Jun 2019 08:52 by ajb95 »

Ashington46

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #246 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 09:05 »
Interesting that this thread is now 17 pages long....

Just to be clear in what is being said so I understand it clearly:

VAR has been brought in to certain situations to clear up any confusion and to determine the correct decision based on the evidence it has, including overturning clear and obvious errors by on field match officials.

Now in my short experience of VAR from world cups, champions league, Domestic Cups, and several leagues from around Europe including Germany l, Spain and Italy, clear and obvious hasn’t really come into the picture IMHO.
In the many instances of VAR intervention I have seen, very few decisions that have been overturned due to a clear and obvious error but most of the decisions have been overturned which myself and the majority of fans pundits  etc. have said were NOT a penalty.
The decision making process is practically the same - the difference is that there is an extra official watching it on a screen and the referees can have a look at pitch side. It remains subject to personal interpretation of the selected officials on the day. No matter how black and white the rules are!

Football is highly subjective with many of the laws being unclear and vague, so applying something such as VAR to a sport such as this is extremely difficult and inevitably increases confusion removes clarity which in turn ruins the viewing spectacle of the sport!

ajb --I totally agree, however, we have to come to terms with the fact that they will be able to change TLOG in order to accommodate VAR because it is what the media and those running the game want.  As you correctly say, it is just introducing another opinion (or more than one?) relating to an incident and they are still not 100% certain to make the correct decision. Sadly, it is the  future.
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #247 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 11:07 »
The VAR preparation for this tournament was useless, imo.  None of the refs referee in leagues where VAR is in use, it hasn't reached women's domestic leagues yet, and all they had by way of preparation was a 10 day/2 week course held just before the tournament started. Not real live games - manufactured scenarios with FIFA instructors. I don't think a single one of them had any VAR experience prior to that. My opinion is that FIFA in rushing to have parity (can't think of another way of putting it) between the men's tournaments and the women's one and making a decision so late on in the day has led to the referees being ill prepared and completely inexperienced with VAR.  They had 3 years of training for the tournament - VAR course was 2 weeks, they returned home one weekend and left the next weekend for the tournament. It might have been a couple of weeks but no more. I know Katalin Kulcsár also attended the men's/mixed VAR course in Qatar I think it was, a few weeks before that one, which was only a 4 maybe 5 day course. Her Hungarian assistant was with her & I believe the English ladies also attended as I remember Sian mentioning it. I don't know if any others were there or not, they may have been. They should not have thrust it on them at such short notice, it is unfair on them & I suspect has been instrumental in the problems that have now happened. Personally I think it is completely wrong that any referee has their first live use VAR game in a world cup, it's no wonder there are issues.

I'm very thankful Katalin has had 2 excellent games with very little need for VAR intervention! Long may that continue.  In the Jamaica v China game she did have a pen shout that she indicated no to (correctly) but was also talking on her comms asking her Hungarian assistant & the VAR team if there had been contact at the same time. She got a quick response and play carried on. It was the correct decision.  I have to admit I have only watched the games she has been involved in!

Well, that explains a lot emphasising the fact that these officials have effectively been hung out to dry which is disgraceful.
What will the effect be on those officials who haven't 'coped' as well as others and have had their 'mistakes' caused by their relative inexperience with VAR highlighted so publicly?

What decisions made during the Women's World Cup would you or BMB attribute to the referee's lack of VAR experience?

nemesis

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #248 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 11:42 »
The VAR preparation for this tournament was useless, imo.  None of the refs referee in leagues where VAR is in use, it hasn't reached women's domestic leagues yet, and all they had by way of preparation was a 10 day/2 week course held just before the tournament started. Not real live games - manufactured scenarios with FIFA instructors. I don't think a single one of them had any VAR experience prior to that. My opinion is that FIFA in rushing to have parity (can't think of another way of putting it) between the men's tournaments and the women's one and making a decision so late on in the day has led to the referees being ill prepared and completely inexperienced with VAR.  They had 3 years of training for the tournament - VAR course was 2 weeks, they returned home one weekend and left the next weekend for the tournament. It might have been a couple of weeks but no more. I know Katalin Kulcsár also attended the men's/mixed VAR course in Qatar I think it was, a few weeks before that one, which was only a 4 maybe 5 day course. Her Hungarian assistant was with her & I believe the English ladies also attended as I remember Sian mentioning it. I don't know if any others were there or not, they may have been. They should not have thrust it on them at such short notice, it is unfair on them & I suspect has been instrumental in the problems that have now happened. Personally I think it is completely wrong that any referee has their first live use VAR game in a world cup, it's no wonder there are issues.

I'm very thankful Katalin has had 2 excellent games with very little need for VAR intervention! Long may that continue.  In the Jamaica v China game she did have a pen shout that she indicated no to (correctly) but was also talking on her comms asking her Hungarian assistant & the VAR team if there had been contact at the same time. She got a quick response and play carried on. It was the correct decision.  I have to admit I have only watched the games she has been involved in!

Well, that explains a lot emphasising the fact that these officials have effectively been hung out to dry which is disgraceful.
What will the effect be on those officials who haven't 'coped' as well as others and have had their 'mistakes' caused by their relative inexperience with VAR highlighted so publicly?

What decisions made during the Women's World Cup would you or BMB attribute to the referee's lack of VAR experience?

Well one certainly forgot to stop her watch whilst it was going on!!!

Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #249 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 11:56 »
Yes - and that was terrible officiating. But surely that is just dismal refereeing. It's not as a stoppage in play is an usual event - how would she manage if there's a serious injury?

I've never refereed a game with VAR but I'm pretty certain that if I was asked to referee a game tomorrow and the game was pretty much stopped from 86 minutes to 94 minutes then I would manage to add on more than one minute!

If the lady in question needs to referee half a dozen matches with VAR to grasp that then refereeing perhaps isn't for her.

bmb

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #250 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 14:20 »
I've not watched enough games to be able to comment fairly to be honest.  The timekeeping error was nothing to do with VAR, that was just poor officiating, no more no less.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

QuoCob

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #251 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 14:45 »
I have seen a number of the WWC games.  It's the randomness of it's use, in games where similar incidents have or have not been referred or indicated as having been referred to VAR. 
For example, last night's USA v Sweden there were a couple of similar KMI's at each end in the penalty area's a couple were and a couple weren't.  The non offside for the USA second goal when the offside player clearly challenged/intimidated the Swedish defender to slice the ball to the USA player in front of goal.  There is also a perception that VAR decisions appear to going more in favour of the bigger team/host rather than the international minnows in women's football.
A definite perception of officials being like rabbits in headlights and the length of time taken over what appear to be relatively easy decisions.
It's not about mistakes, it's the use of and the confidence of the officials both on field and in the VAR box in using it which could've been easily improved by better 'live' preparation.
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Readingfan

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #252 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 15:19 »
I have seen a number of the WWC games.  It's the randomness of it's use, in games where similar incidents have or have not been referred or indicated as having been referred to VAR. 
For example, last night's USA v Sweden there were a couple of similar KMI's at each end in the penalty area's a couple were and a couple weren't.  The non offside for the USA second goal when the offside player clearly challenged/intimidated the Swedish defender to slice the ball to the USA player in front of goal.  There is also a perception that VAR decisions appear to going more in favour of the bigger team/host rather than the international minnows in women's football.
A definite perception of officials being like rabbits in headlights and the length of time taken over what appear to be relatively easy decisions.
It's not about mistakes, it's the use of and the confidence of the officials both on field and in the VAR box in using it which could've been easily improved by better 'live' preparation.

Remember that VAR are checking everything and that they have predominant responsibility for whether or not a review takes place because they are the ones with access to the pictures.

As mentioned, the VARs are men who have plenty of experience as VARs with many of them being used at the World Cup in Russia last summer.

I agree that it would ideally have been better for the referees to have more experience officiating with VAR but equally there were clear logistical challenges with organising that considering the number of officials involved from across the world and the fact that no domestic women leagues (as far as I'm aware) use VAR. This was even more of a challenge when you consider that the decision to use VAR was only made a few months before the tournament.

Rightly or wrongly, I don't think that FIFA were initially planning on having VAR at this World Cup but there was a clamour for it considering its perceived success at the World Cup last summer and the concern about the standard of refereeing without it. I do think that some of the refereeing in the tournament has been poor and therefore think it is preferable that VAR has been incorporated. I think the main complaint that some people would have is VAR being too intrusive/pedantic on occasions.

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #253 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 15:58 »
That is my main complaint - I feel it was unfair on the referees themselves to spring it onto them essentially at the last moment. Bibiana Steinhaus is the only one who had ever done a game with VAR prior to the tournament. I don't think it right that any referee should have the experience of their first VAR game with a worldwide audience of hundreds of thousands if not millions watching particularly given the lack of pre-tournament training. 10 days technical training a couple of weeks or so before the tournament, whilst also getting to grip with the changes in the LOTG, after 3 years of training to not have it is inadequate, imo. Bringing it in at the last minute has placed too much emphasis/focus on it, it's new, it's the first time & everyone - fans/players/managers/pundits are focusing on it & scrutinising it, probably too much, but that is human nature & football, off the pitch!  That is my bigger complaint than any decisions actually made, I feel the refs have had an extra huge pressure dumped on them at the last moment, they are being expected to utilise it & get it right because of the big audience & the historical nature of it, if you understand what I mean, whilst actually learning to use it for the first time.

The changes to the LOTG will also play a part in the decisions. Everyone is expecting it to work as it did in Russia but the LOTG have been refined since then. The latest tweaking/refining/rewrite only came into force for this tournament and the roles are now slightly different to what they were in Russia. There's a big VAR section included now, that wasn't there for Russia. Things like the goalie having to have at least 1 foot on the line is a prime example & seems to be one of the more 'controversial things' - fans/players/managers/pundits haven't yet got to grip with the changes to the LOTG because this is the first time they are seeing them in action which has seemed to add to the complaints because decisions are being made that they simply don't expect because they haven't studied the changes in depth.
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Microscopist

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Re: The VAR thread
« Reply #254 on: Fri 21 Jun 2019 16:24 »
in my view VAR will eventually both improve refereeing standards and add to the enjoyment of the game.

There are two issues.
Firstly VAR is highlighting problems with how the laws of the game are written and understood.  In olden days pre-exhaustive televising of games refereeing decisions were observed by spectators at the time and there was little hard evidence against which decisions could be judged.  Then TV came along and referees were at a disadvantage in only having one chance and one viewing and it was not unreasonable to excuse errors on the basis of what you don't see you can't give.  Now we have VAR and that excuse has to a large extent vanished but we are still seeing inconsistancies in the application of the laws. So there are areas where the law needs to be clearer, but that is the case with or without VAR.

Secondly there is the view that the technology of VAR is absolute, it is not.  Like all measurements it is prone to error and allowance should be made for this.  Having said that it is more precise than simple human observation - and  should give better decisions.

To take the example of the Scotland - Argentina game:

Penalty - on first viewing it seemed to me to be a penalty and I was surprised that it wasn't given.  The VAR took a long time, and I can only surmise that they wanted to see if the defender got a touch on the ball first (whether that should make any difference or not is a separate issue).  From what I have seen of the video footage the VAR neither confirms nor denies whether there was a touch on the ball as any possible contact is always shielded from the camera - although looks more likely that there was no touch at a different angle from that which the referee had seen.  So the touch or no touch is unseen and shouldn't be used to change the original decision; on the other hand had the referee given the penalty VAR should not have been used to reverse it.

Retake: I've seen two different stills one shows the keeper clearly off her line and the other would suggest perhaps part of her foot just overhangs the line (define jumping? she is clearly in the act of jumping, does the jump only count if both feet are already off the ground?)  The point is that striking the ball is not instantaneous - guesstimate that the foot is in contact with the ball for 1/100 sec - someone can move perhaps 10mm.  If you then take frame rates into account the movement could be 15 to 30 mm.  So VAR has to take into account the uncertainty of measurement - which didn't seem to be the case here.
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