Author Topic: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee  (Read 916 times)

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RCG

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The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« on: Sat 27 Jun 2020 08:03 »
What crime is more heinous? Making a positive decision based on well coached positioning, thought processes, experience and being proved wrong? Or ignoring offences and waiting for your 2 mates with a zapper to make the call?
Are we scaring our top officials away from making on field decisions?

Case for the prosecution: Thurs night, important game, late on. Quick break with an advanrage (did De Bruyne get cautioned?), ping pong in the box, referee 16 yards from goal line, player clearly uses his hand to prevent a player getting the scoring touch. Penalty the whole non crowd scream (would it have been given quicker had the fans been behind the goal?). Referee continues the game whilst conversing with pizza delivery company.

I would like to know if Attwell said "almost certain he handled that, please check" or whether it was initiated by VAR.

If that incident had happened at any level below Premier League the referee and probably the assistant would have been lynched if a penalty had not been given.

These guys are amongst the best but will be losing their instincts/feel for the game if we are not careful

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Ashington46

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #1 on: Sat 27 Jun 2020 10:43 »
I do not know whether or not VAR is affecting the ability or willingness for onfield officials to make decisions, only they could tell you that, however, their answer should be that it makes no difference.
I can tell you that De Bruyne was cautioned for the offence leading up to the penalty, although that took some time if memory serves me correctly, possibly because of it showing the VAR reviews.
Referee's decision used to be final!
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carrowman

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #2 on: Sat 27 Jun 2020 11:03 »
What crime is more heinous? Making a positive decision based on well coached positioning, thought processes, experience and being proved wrong? Or ignoring offences and waiting for your 2 mates with a zapper to make the call?
Are we scaring our top officials away from making on field decisions?

Case for the prosecution: Thurs night, important game, late on. Quick break with an advanrage (did De Bruyne get cautioned?), ping pong in the box, referee 16 yards from goal line, player clearly uses his hand to prevent a player getting the scoring touch. Penalty the whole non crowd scream (would it have been given quicker had the fans been behind the goal?). Referee continues the game whilst conversing with pizza delivery company.

I would like to know if Attwell said "almost certain he handled that, please check" or whether it was initiated by VAR.

If that incident had happened at any level below Premier League the referee and probably the assistant would have been lynched if a penalty had not been given.

These guys are amongst the best but will be losing their instincts/feel for the game if we are not careful

I agree, I did make a comment yesterday on the earlier S Attwell post
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Hendo

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #3 on: Sat 27 Jun 2020 13:55 »
Since cricket introduced tv replays it has been noticeable that so much is referred to the 3rd umpire which wasnít before and which really should be now. Am thinking especially of run outs and the number of times these are referred when the player is a good yard or more out. Your top umpires of yesteryear such as David Shepherd, Dickie Bird, Barrie Meyer etc used to make such split decisions without tv help and in the majority of cases were spot on.
I think it was Peter Wiley who said it was better to refer to Technology available than risk being made to look a fool, even when you were 99% sure of your own decision and the outcome was pretty obvious to the naked eye.
That said I recall the 2017 RL Cup Final at Wembley where a last minute attack ended up with a player held on the line. It would have been easy to have referred the decision to the tv official but the referee made an instant on field call of no try, confident in his own judgement to do so. A brilliant decision as it proved, from a part time ref too, Gareth Hewer. In my humble opinion, and not simply due to that decision, one of the most accomplished Wembley Final performances I have ever seen from a referee.
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Scally Bob

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #4 on: Sun 28 Jun 2020 17:16 »
I do not know whether or not VAR is affecting the ability or willingness for onfield officials to make decisions, only they could tell you that, however, their answer should be that it makes no difference.
I can tell you that De Bruyne was cautioned for the offence leading up to the penalty, although that took some time if memory serves me correctly, possibly because of it showing the VAR reviews.
Next season De Bruyne would escape the YC (assuming it was for preventing a promising attack) because advantage was played.

As for the original question: I donít watch a lot of rugby league but I said when VAR was coming in that in many rugby league games what look like very simple decisions that Iíd expect a referee to see are referred to the video referee. Even my untrained eye could see what the decision should be and rugby league referees because of the nature of the game are rarely poorly positioned. I predicted football referees would be the same especially as I suspect the head of PGMOL might not be supportive of an official who makes an error.

ajb95

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #5 on: Sun 28 Jun 2020 21:16 »
I do not know whether or not VAR is affecting the ability or willingness for onfield officials to make decisions, only they could tell you that, however, their answer should be that it makes no difference.
I can tell you that De Bruyne was cautioned for the offence leading up to the penalty, although that took some time if memory serves me correctly, possibly because of it showing the VAR reviews.
Next season De Bruyne would escape the YC (assuming it was for preventing a promising attack) because advantage was played.

Another rule that doesnít need tampering with!

The VAR should be used for a clear mistake. Everyone can make them, have a bad position etc.
A good example is the Man City v Man United. Rashford clearly fouled in the box Taylor unsighted and VAR intervenes to give the correct decision.
I havenít seen much evidence of this so far!
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Readingfan

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #6 on: Mon 29 Jun 2020 18:35 »
The way football's use of VAR seems to me (at least in theory) to be a bit different to most other sports. In rugby, it seems the referee can opt out of making a decision initially and just ask the TMO to check, whereas in football the procedure is they should actively make a decision first (either way) and then VAR checks everything and overrules if wrong.

I'm sure some of the poorer/weaker officials do make non-decisions in the belief VAR can bail them out if wrong but let's remember plenty of mistakes were made before VAR so I doubt this is the case every time. Some referees just miss quite a lot!

It would be interesting I suppose to hear what the error rate for KMI decisions was this season before VAR intervention and how it compared to the KMI errors last year without VAR (I think it was around 82% accuracy in the PL last year?)



Ashington46

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #7 on: Mon 29 Jun 2020 19:20 »
The way football's use of VAR seems to me (at least in theory) to be a bit different to most other sports. In rugby, it seems the referee can opt out of making a decision initially and just ask the TMO to check, whereas in football the procedure is they should actively make a decision first (either way) and then VAR checks everything and overrules if wrong.

I'm sure some of the poorer/weaker officials do make non-decisions in the belief VAR can bail them out if wrong but let's remember plenty of mistakes were made before VAR so I doubt this is the case every time. Some referees just miss quite a lot!

It would be interesting I suppose to hear what the error rate for KMI decisions was this season before VAR intervention and how it compared to the KMI errors last year without VAR (I think it was around 82% accuracy in the PL last year?)

I don't know what the procedure is in Rugby Union because I have no interest in that aspect of rugby, however, In Rugby League the referee makes his decision and indicates on the field whether he thinks it is a try or not an asks the TMO to check various aspects. It is then dependent on whether or not the TMO can see anything concrete to overrule the original decision. In the NRL in Australia they have also introduced a Captain's Challenge where the skipper of each side can challenge ONE onfield decision per match, if he wins the challenge it retains the opportunity to challenge again, however, if he loses the challenge then that is the end of it. Certainly seems to work very well and is amusing to hear the ref getting a bit of grief, smiling at the player and asking if he wishes to challenge and grinning broadly when the player shakes his head.
Referee's decision used to be final!

RCG

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #8 on: Tue 30 Jun 2020 00:28 »
Rugby union is similar on tries. Onfield decision is communicated, TMO must then have clear evidence to change/over rule
I am still a big fan of the "moving check" where referees ask TMO to check something whilst game is in motion. If there is, this is reviewed at next stoppage. If not, game goes on with ref saying "we have checked it, get on with it"
Not 100% but in the main decisions are made correctly. Much more of an emphasis on the on field officials to make a decision.
95+/100 as you listen to the ref explain it, they have got it right first viewing.

flipmode

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #9 on: Tue 30 Jun 2020 02:19 »
You could also argue the other way too, that VAR's are too scared to overrule/advise their on field counterparts.

Case for the prosecution being Jordan Ayew v Brownhill in the Palace v Burnley match. Incident reviewed by VAR and no RC for VC given. I feel strongly that if the on-field referee had consulted the pitch-side monitor that it would have been deemed VC and a RC given.
I'm amazed that the VAR looked at that and decided no clear and obvious error had been made.
David Silva olť.

Leggy

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #10 on: Tue 30 Jun 2020 08:06 »
The way football's use of VAR seems to me (at least in theory) to be a bit different to most other sports. In rugby, it seems the referee can opt out of making a decision initially and just ask the TMO to check, whereas in football the procedure is they should actively make a decision first (either way) and then VAR checks everything and overrules if wrong.

I'm sure some of the poorer/weaker officials do make non-decisions in the belief VAR can bail them out if wrong but let's remember plenty of mistakes were made before VAR so I doubt this is the case every time. Some referees just miss quite a lot!

It would be interesting I suppose to hear what the error rate for KMI decisions was this season before VAR intervention and how it compared to the KMI errors last year without VAR (I think it was around 82% accuracy in the PL last year?)


I don't know what the procedure is in Rugby Union because I have no interest in that aspect of rugby, however, In Rugby League the referee makes his decision and indicates on the field whether he thinks it is a try or not an asks the TMO to check various aspects. It is then dependent on whether or not the TMO can see anything concrete to overrule the original decision. In the NRL in Australia they have also introduced a Captain's Challenge where the skipper of each side can challenge ONE onfield decision per match, if he wins the challenge it retains the opportunity to challenge again, however, if he loses the challenge then that is the end of it. Certainly seems to work very well and is amusing to hear the ref getting a bit of grief, smiling at the player and asking if he wishes to challenge and grinning broadly when the player shakes his head.

The NRL's "Captain's Challenge" is also used (in one form or another) in Cricket and Hockey.  It creates a "put up of shut up moment" with dissent.  Football should adopt it.

Readingfan

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Re: The fear of being wrong by V.A.Referee
« Reply #11 on: Tue 30 Jun 2020 13:13 »
Rugby union is similar on tries. Onfield decision is communicated, TMO must then have clear evidence to change/over rule
I am still a big fan of the "moving check" where referees ask TMO to check something whilst game is in motion. If there is, this is reviewed at next stoppage. If not, game goes on with ref saying "we have checked it, get on with it"
Not 100% but in the main decisions are made correctly. Much more of an emphasis on the on field officials to make a decision.
95+/100 as you listen to the ref explain it, they have got it right first viewing.

That process is quite similar to what happens in football.

The slight difference to me seems to be that in football the referee always has to make a decision and everything related to the reviewable incidents gets reviewed whereas it seems in rugby it's a bit more selective what goes to the TMO. And with most red card incidnets I've seen in rugby it feels the referee/TMO will nearly always look at it on the screen before making a decision.