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Author Topic: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester  (Read 1305 times)

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Ref95

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Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 14:54 »
Not a good showing from Attwell so far, or VAR Tierney for that matter. Somehow both miss a clear SFP for Sabitzer. Poor decision to caution Faes too for a great challenge, however once he decided it was a foul it was a mandatory caution.

Fingers crossed for an improved second half.

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jacksamuel21

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #1 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 14:59 »
Sound like a Leicester fan, caution only would have been suitable for Sabitzer. Missing the caution was poor from Attwell.

Clear foul on Fernandes from Faes, however Attwell only gave it after the appeals.
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Comeonref

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #2 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 15:00 »
A suggestion from the tv there was insufficient force for a red. Personally I disagree. Listening to Graeme Souness. He said it was the perfect position if you wanted to take someone out and from my memories of some of his horror challenges in his career he should know.
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Ref95

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #3 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 15:25 »
Sound like a Leicester fan, caution only would have been suitable for Sabitzer. Missing the caution was poor from Attwell.

Clear foul on Fernandes from Faes, however Attwell only gave it after the appeals.

Sound like a United fan, not really sure what would be SFP, if a knee high tackle, studs first, nowhere near the ball, in a position where there is zero chance he could possibly be going for the ball. But happy to be enlightened?
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jacksamuel21

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #4 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 15:31 »
Sound like a Leicester fan, caution only would have been suitable for Sabitzer. Missing the caution was poor from Attwell.

Clear foul on Fernandes from Faes, however Attwell only gave it after the appeals.

Sound like a United fan, not really sure what would be SFP, if a knee high tackle, studs first, nowhere near the ball, in a position where there is zero chance he could possibly be going for the ball. But happy to be enlightened?

He barely touched him though. Retracted his leg at the right time. I am certainly not a United fan.

Second Rashford goal looked like it was offside
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dave26

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #5 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 16:04 »
I thought Attwell was very good the only negative was the missed YC for Sabitzer , I too was expecting the second goal to be chalked off by VAR especially as we’ve seen goals chalked off for a toe or toenail being offside
« Last Edit: Sun 19 Feb 2023 16:13 by dave26 »
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Ref95

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #6 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 16:27 »
Extremely strange caution for Mendy at the start of the second half to add to the poor first half, but improved from then on.

Whilst the second goal looked, and was given offside on field. I have sympathy with both the onfield team and the VAR team here. They can only do as has been asked and draw lines based on their own judgement.

But that goal simply must be ruled out, there is absolutely no evidence to overturn the original decision made by the AR. It is impossible from a freeze frame at that angle to determine the exact point the ball was kicked, the exact most forward point of Rashford and the exact most rear point of the Leicester defenders. In cases like that, the decision must remain with the original decision, otherwise there is simply no point in having assistant referees, we may as well just use VAR for all offsides.

Would love to hear some views on this, in my opinion there must be clear evidence of an error by the AR to overturn it, that was not the case today.

ChippenhamCherry

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #7 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 17:15 »
It is impossible from a freeze frame at that angle to determine the exact point the ball was kicked, the exact most forward point of Rashford and the exact most rear point of the Leicester defenders.

The cameras are synced so a different camera with a clearer view can be used to determine the point the ball was kicked to the one being used to draw the lines on the players.

Claretman

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #8 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 19:51 »
Extremely strange caution for Mendy at the start of the second half to add to the poor first half, but improved from then on.

Whilst the second goal looked, and was given offside on field. I have sympathy with both the onfield team and the VAR team here. They can only do as has been asked and draw lines based on their own judgement.

But that goal simply must be ruled out, there is absolutely no evidence to overturn the original decision made by the AR. It is impossible from a freeze frame at that angle to determine the exact point the ball was kicked, the exact most forward point of Rashford and the exact most rear point of the Leicester defenders. In cases like that, the decision must remain with the original decision, otherwise there is simply no point in having assistant referees, we may as well just use VAR for all offsides.

Would love to hear some views on this, in my opinion there must be clear evidence of an error by the AR to overturn it, that was not the case today.
With regard to offside it is a matter of fact, something all clubs signed up to, the only time the decision remains with the on field officials is if there is no camera angle available to judge ie Liverpool v Wolves f a cup tie earlier this year. ( of course after last week have to add the proviso that as it is humans drawing the lines, they have to use the correct last defender to draw the line from ).

Var is used to check goals, penalty kicks and sfp, so cannot be used for all offsides, god help us timewise if it was.

Referee99

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Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
« Reply #9 on: Sun 19 Feb 2023 21:05 »
Thought attwell was very inconsistent today in his decision making. And how this wasn’t given as a red by him or VAR… I will never know
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Ref95

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Extremely strange caution for Mendy at the start of the second half to add to the poor first half, but improved from then on.

Whilst the second goal looked, and was given offside on field. I have sympathy with both the onfield team and the VAR team here. They can only do as has been asked and draw lines based on their own judgement.

But that goal simply must be ruled out, there is absolutely no evidence to overturn the original decision made by the AR. It is impossible from a freeze frame at that angle to determine the exact point the ball was kicked, the exact most forward point of Rashford and the exact most rear point of the Leicester defenders. In cases like that, the decision must remain with the original decision, otherwise there is simply no point in having assistant referees, we may as well just use VAR for all offsides.

Would love to hear some views on this, in my opinion there must be clear evidence of an error by the AR to overturn it, that was not the case today.
With regard to offside it is a matter of fact, something all clubs signed up to, the only time the decision remains with the on field officials is if there is no camera angle available to judge ie Liverpool v Wolves f a cup tie earlier this year. ( of course after last week have to add the proviso that as it is humans drawing the lines, they have to use the correct last defender to draw the line from ).

Var is used to check goals, penalty kicks and sfp, so cannot be used for all offsides, god help us timewise if it was.

I think you’ve slightly missed my point, clearly offside is a matter of fact, you are onside or you’re off, irrespective of how far that may be.

My point is that it is impossible for the VAR to rule either way on decisions that are so close, such as the Rashford goal today. It is a human decision to rule it onside or offside on the field, and a human decision where to place the lines on the VAR technology. We currently don’t have the technology to be accurate (perhaps the semi-automatic system will improve this) enough to change an onfield decision as close as this, there should be a bigger degree of tolerance before overturning a decision.

“Clear and obvious” doesn’t come into it when offside is involved, but I firmly believe that we shouldn’t be taking decisions as close as this away from the AR.

And of course I completely agree that we absolutely do not want VAR ruling on every offside, but that seems to be the direction we are heading.
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ajb95

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Thought attwell was very inconsistent today in his decision making. And how this wasn’t given as a red by him or VAR… I will never know

Photos can be misleading. If anyone could share the full clip, it would show that there was minimal contact, which was neither excessive force nor out of control. You could still make an argument for endangering the safety, but for me clearly a yellow card, flirting towards orange.
Not sure Attwell had a clear view on the highlights shown
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Failed Ref

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I would argue that the AR was not in the best position being to close to the two players. It was another player playing him onside and I would find it difficult to see where both defenders were. Also, we have to note the foreshortening effect of the cameras which I would imagine VAR is capable of handling. VAR is the deciding factor and that brings clarity and certainty. Close call and no criticism of the AR I must add.
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Jake the Peg

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Thought attwell was very inconsistent today in his decision making. And how this wasn’t given as a red by him or VAR… I will never know

Photos can be misleading. If anyone could share the full clip, it would show that there was minimal contact, which was neither excessive force nor out of control. You could still make an argument for endangering the safety, but for me clearly a yellow card, flirting towards orange.
Not sure Attwell had a clear view on the highlights shown

If Sabitzer wasn't out of control are you saying that sticking his studs into an opponents knee, no matter the force, was his actual purpose?  Interestingly, Dermot Gallagher thought it was a red and couldn't understand why Atwell didn't even give a yellow.
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Adam

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No way the Sabitzer tackle is a red. No force involved whatsoever and tried his best to pull out. He removed the potential danger by not using force and therefore the player wasn't endangered. Yellow, can't understand why Attwell didn't give that.
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