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Author Topic: S Attwell - Ars v M City  (Read 2613 times)

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Affy_Moose

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #15 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:14 »
Yes we've missed chances, but Atwell and Co have ruined a perfectly amazing game and I wouldn't have minded that pen bring given if they were consistent but again no.
5 arsenal bookings to city's none when Rodri should easily have one if not 2 depending on your harshness.

I have to disagree. The whole 5v0 cautions doesn’t show anything. Every one of the Arsenal cautions, with perhaps the exception of the subjective dissent for Saka, are all 100% technical cautions that are unavoidable.

Rodri’s fouls are careless fouls, and don’t qualify for denying a promising attack.

I’m not sure Atwell could have done much different - the game is a tricky one to manage. The commentators are lamenting “lost control”, but besides giving soft free kicks, and soft cautions, there isn’t much he can do. One subjective penalty decision aside, everything in this game has been straight forward.
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ajb95

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #16 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:15 »
Is City’s penalty a clear and obvious error. I think we all know the answer

Affy_Moose

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #17 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:19 »
Is City’s penalty a clear and obvious error. I think we all know the answer

If Atwell doesn’t see the shirt pull and says so to VAR, then yes, it could be - so long as VAR sees something that is objectively different. That appears to have happened.

If Atwell says he’s seen the shirt pull and doesn’t think it’s enough, it doesn’t get reviewed.

Edit: I’m not sure what’s being disagreed with. I’m stating a factual position that would allow VAR to recommend a review. If the referee states something that doesn’t match what VAR sees AND VAR believes there to be a penalty, then it’s getting reviewed. That’s not a comment on the decision, but it’s a factual description of how the process can work.
« Last Edit: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:30 by Affy_Moose »
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Tweed

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #18 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:21 »
Is City’s penalty a clear and obvious error. I think we all know the answer

I think it depends.  If Atwell saw the tug but decided not to give it because Silva was on his way down, I'd disagree with him but I'd accept his call and I don't think VAR should intervene in that scenario. 

If, on the other hand, Atwell didn't see the tug, it is a clear and obvious error and he was right to allow Gillett to overrule him.
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Mackem ref

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #19 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:33 »
In real time, Attwell clearly felt there wasn’t enough to justify a penalty and having seen the replay I believe he was correct not to give it.

Once sent to the monitor, it’s inevitable that the decision will be changed. Why? I can only remember two occasions where the referee has viewed the monitor and stuck with their original call (Graham Scott and Andre Marriner). Is it the expectation from PGMOL that you stick with VAR’s call? Or are referees scared that should they go against VAR that we might not see them in the PL again for a few weeks?
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Critics

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #20 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:33 »
I'm just curious why Rodri hasn't been booked for approximately 3 YC offence until he scored. Poor Attwell - not showing any consistency between the two teams.
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d394829

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #21 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:36 »
After all that, it seems celebrating shirtless and in front of opposing fans isn't a bookable offence either.

Hertsref123

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #22 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:42 »
After all that, it seems celebrating shirtless and in front of opposing fans isn't a bookable offence either.

I believe he was booked for that.
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d394829

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #23 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 14:48 »
After all that, it seems celebrating shirtless and in front of opposing fans isn't a bookable offence either.

I believe he was booked for that.

Oh, ok, I have just seen on the premier league live page, that he has been booked, I was following the sky sports commentary page, which didn't show the booking.
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rustyref

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #24 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 15:01 »
I'm just curious why Rodri hasn't been booked for approximately 3 YC offence until he scored. Poor Attwell - not showing any consistency between the two teams.

Man City only committed five fouls all game, and two of those were after the winner.  Rodri only made two fouls, hardly persistent infringement.
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Ref Fan

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #25 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 15:04 »
Even if Attwell didn't see the slight tug on the shirt, VAR still has to decide whether that was enough for a penalty.  Would it be a 'soft' penalty that seemingly is discouraged nowadays, and was Siva going down anyway not because of a foul?  Two VAR reviews, both of which decisions could perhaps be justified but taken together understandably made Arsenal feel hard done by.  Personally, I thought VAR should have not advised an OFR for the City penalty on the basis there wasn't enough in it, combined with Silva's apparent simulation.  If I heard right, Peter Walton - before VAR advised the review - didn't think it was a penalty.

As a neutral, while individual YCs for Arsenal could individually be justified, the overall outcomes didn't altogether sit pretty with me.  I recall reading in one of the former referee's autobiographies - may have been Elleray's - that if a referee senses that one team is getting frustrated and feeling hard done by, and clocking up YCs after one or two decisions that might be considered marginal or controversial, it could be prudent in managing the game to caution a player of the opposing team for a foul that in a different situation might not bring a YC. I did wonder whether Attwell might have been wiser to do something like that today.  I'm not talking about evening things up but perhaps using subjective discretion as to whether a foul was considered careless or reckless to try and cool things down.  There weren't many admittedly by City but there was the odd one that maybe he could have used to exercise control.
« Last Edit: Sat 01 Jan 2022 15:09 by Ref Fan »
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Boz

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #26 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 15:06 »
If I were an Arsenal rather than a City fan, would be feeling hard done to after that game.

At first glance, I felt the Arsenal penalty shout looked like a penalty, but the slow motion footage seemed to suggest Ederson just got to the ball first, though incredibly tight and so think VAR right to leave it with the referees initial decision.

The one given for City appears to have been on the recommendation of VAR Mr Gillett. Would be good if the discussions between onfield referee and VAR could be heard by spectators as that would resolve speculation as to whether Mr Attwell had seen the holding of the shirt and didn't deem it sufficient contact for Silva's fall or hadn't seen it. I wasn't convinced there was enough.

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Critics

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #27 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 15:17 »
I'm just curious why Rodri hasn't been booked for approximately 3 YC offence until he scored. Poor Attwell - not showing any consistency between the two teams.

Man City only committed five fouls all game, and two of those were after the winner.  Rodri only made two fouls, hardly persistent infringement.

I'm not talking about persistent infringement. I only find Rodri's 2 possible YC offences - 39' reckless challenge against Saka and 63' stop promising attack against Lacazette, so maybe 2 is the correct number.

Claretman

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #28 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 16:04 »
Personally i thought mr attwell had a fairly decent game today.
The game got heated up as the arsenal players seemed riled at the perceived injustices, thus causing both teams  unnecessarily Surrounding of the referee i hope this is dealt with by the fa but i fear not, i leave you to your conclusions as to why it will probably swept under the carpet.

Penalty call to arsenal, onfield decision no penalty, i guess attwell was unsure who played the ball and if unsure you dont give a penalty. I would think from the referees angle, the direction the ball travelled would lead him
To think that ederson got the ball. With the var i guess attwell, and it is a guess without hearing the audio, stated
That he thought ederson got ball and i reckon gillett could not be sure himself from all the camera angles viewed who played the ball. Again if unsure you cannot give the penalty, and it most certainly wasnt a clear and obvious error. I am still not 100pct sure whether it was foul after seeing many replays, it could be odegard caused the ball to move in the direction it did.

Penalty call to man city, onfield decision no penalty, i reckon from attwells angle he hadnt got a cat in hells chance of seeing xhaka pull silvas shirt, xhaka blocked his view with his body even if no one else did. Silva was going off balance was this due a foul by xhaka, a shirt pull or was it simulation?
As referees wont give fouls to players who stay on their feet, then players will go to ground as soon as they feel some contact.
I would think, but again not being able to hear the audio between attwell and gillett, that attwell would have told
The var he didnt see the shirt pull. I think here the var has no option to ask attwell to go to the screen, if seen on the pitch anywhere else than the box i am sure a free kick would be given and a yellow card issued.
Attwell has the option to view the replays and tell var he doesnt consider the shirt pull if he so pleases.

I am sure attwell has viewed a replay before and over ruled var, think it was chelsea v man utd but i am not 100 pct sure.

Gabriel was stupid, after scuffing up the penalty spot for which he was rightly cautioned for, ramsdale did the same but got away with it, he makes a rash challenge moments later pulling back sterling another cautionable offence resulting in a red card. Nailed on for me, i hope he gets further punishment for failing to leaving the field of play immediately.

Rodri was probably lucky not to get a yellow card for the foul, which resulted in saka receiving the sanction for imploring the referee to caution rodri. I like the fact saka was cautioned referees dont do this often enough.
I have no objection to the referee booking both rodri for the foul and saka for his misdemeanour if he so wishes.
Would rodri have taken his shirt off after scoring if he had already been booked, one would think not, but then
You wouldnt be surprised.

Arsenal were unlucky, they deserved a draw, decisions didnt go their way that might have on another day but that is football !!

Var will never eradicate controversial incidents as humans, be it referees or vars, see things differently as the opinions on this thread prove.
« Last Edit: Sat 01 Jan 2022 16:07 by Claretman »
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Irishref1985

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Re: S Attwell - Ars v M City
« Reply #29 on: Sat 01 Jan 2022 17:05 »
Not a penalty for Arsenal and in fact if you watch closely, it was a stamp on the City keeper so a corner was the correct call as VAR could awarded a free out... The City penalty is as clear as you get... Gabriel rightly sent off... Decent display from Stuart Atwell...
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