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Author Topic: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face  (Read 553 times)

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bmb

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red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 00:27 »
Interesting eve for Carlos del Cerro Grande yesterday. Sevilla v Barcelona

Jules Kounde gets a straight red for throwing the ball at Jordi Alba's face https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1473413368174182401
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bruntyboy

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #1 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 00:57 »
Simulation, as with Rivaldo at the 2002 World Cup, as the ball did not hit his face and yet he goes down clutching his face.
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Mikael W

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #2 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 01:59 »
He did hit him in the face. Correct decision, throwing the ball at an opponent with excessive force.

(by the way, the ejection of the player who kicked the ball at Rivaldo was correct - Ünsal kicked the ball at him with much more force than was necessary, very obviously having lost his composure given the game context, he was given a SYC which easily could have been straight RC; where the Salvadorian AR / Korean ref messed up was not cautioning Rivaldo for his ridiculous simulation, it would brake with precedent, but would have avoided the officials looking like idiots... or would it, red carding Ünsal anyway... in any case, if they had not royally messed up the decisive penalty minutes before, these two otherwise strong officials wouldn't have been in such a situation as Ünsal-Rivaldo where they couldn't win :))
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bmb

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #3 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 04:45 »
Quote from: bruntyboy on Thu 23 Dec 2021 00:57
Simulation, as with Rivaldo at the 2002 World Cup, as the ball did not hit his face and yet he goes down clutching his face.

It certainly did hit him in the face: https://twitter.com/spanleez/status/1473542020085993472
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Leggy

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #4 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 08:45 »
Indeed, using the ball in this way is violent conduct. 

A million years ago, the (in)famous Wayne Shaw did something similar in an FA Vase game, although he threw the ball at a spectator who was disgustingly abusing his mother. 

The referee sent him off and the club appealed.  The Hampshire FA, in their infinite wisdom managed to find him not guilty, despite his admission of the act.  They concluded that throwing the ball was not violent conduct - that is what happens when you 250+ years of wisdom on a three man disciplinary committee!!
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Ref Watcher

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #5 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 09:48 »
Quote from: Mikael W on Thu 23 Dec 2021 01:59
He did hit him in the face. Correct decision, throwing the ball at an opponent with excessive force.
One could argue that throwing the ball at (as opposed to towards) an opponent (or anyone else) is always done with excessive force as there is no need to do it at all. 

I once saw David Farrell of Peterborough sent off for kicking a ball at an opponent who was on the ground after a coming together between them.  If memory serves me correctly David Pugh was the referee.
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Microscopist

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #6 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 11:19 »
Quote from: Ref Watcher on Thu 23 Dec 2021 09:48
Quote from: Mikael W on Thu 23 Dec 2021 01:59
He did hit him in the face. Correct decision, throwing the ball at an opponent with excessive force.
One could argue that throwing the ball at (as opposed to towards) an opponent (or anyone else) is always done with excessive force as there is no need to do it at all. 

I once saw David Farrell of Peterborough sent off for kicking a ball at an opponent who was on the ground after a coming together between them.  If memory serves me correctly David Pugh was the referee.
It appears that this season the penalty for kicking the ball against a prone opponent is a yellow card.
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Affy_Moose

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #7 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 13:05 »
Quote from: bruntyboy on Thu 23 Dec 2021 00:57
Simulation, as with Rivaldo at the 2002 World Cup, as the ball did not hit his face and yet he goes down clutching his face.

The level of force is very clearly excessive.  It doesn't need to hit him in the face for it to be VC.

Hitting him in the face lowers the threshold for a VC sanction in any case.  In this instance, the ball is an extension of the arm (as would a boot etc.) so it would need to be negligible force for it be a lower sanction.

Alba's reaction was not impressive, but it's one of those "what were you thinking?" moments, rather than anything else.
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guest42

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #8 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 15:51 »
Ray Wilkins was famously sent off in a World Cup Finals for England after throwing the ball at the referee

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Ref Watcher

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #9 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 15:57 »
Quote from: BAFRA #217 on Thu 23 Dec 2021 15:51
Ray Wilkins was famously sent off in a World Cup Finals for England after throwing the ball at the referee


It's a bit late for a debate about it now but how is that violent conduct?  Utter stupidity certainly but violent?  It looks like dissent to me.  Ten minutes in the sin bin at my level.
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Whistleblower

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #10 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 16:12 »
Now that is what I call " flourishing " a card. Anybody any idea who the referee was ?
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rustyref

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #11 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 16:36 »
It's a clear red card.  OK, it probably didn't hurt Alba as much as he made out, but that doesn't stop it being a red.
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bmb

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #12 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 16:43 »
Quote from: Whistleblower on Thu 23 Dec 2021 16:12
Now that is what I call " flourishing " a card. Anybody any idea who the referee was ?

Gabriel González (Paraguay)
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Rosstheref

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #13 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 17:13 »
Clear red card...correct decision.
The action uses excessive force and can not be argued as negligible. Well done!
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Mikael W

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Re: red card for throwing the ball in anther players face
« Reply #14 on: Thu 23 Dec 2021 23:17 »
Quote from: Ref Watcher on Thu 23 Dec 2021 15:57
Quote from: BAFRA #217 on Thu 23 Dec 2021 15:51
Ray Wilkins was famously sent off in a World Cup Finals for England after throwing the ball at the referee


It's a bit late for a debate about it now but how is that violent conduct?  Utter stupidity certainly but violent?  It looks like dissent to me.  Ten minutes in the sin bin at my level.

Wilkins had already been cautioned and no SYCs as we know them today back then, so whether referee González had decided dissent or VC, Wilkins was walking.

Certainly not too late for a debate about WC 1986's refereeing on my dedicated blog(!); link below!
wc86refs.blogspot.com
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