Author Topic: PSG v Istanbul (Read 4163 times)

bmb · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 02:49 »

Quote from: Readingfan on Tue 08 Dec 2020 23:40

Quote from: rustyref on Tue 08 Dec 2020 22:27
Presumably that is Hategan and his team out of contention for the Euros. A lot more extreme, but like one of the team failing the fitness test means that all are out.

Would a Fourth Official be part of a referee's team for a Euros? I thought FOs were normally made up of a small group of extra FOs and the active referees perhaps doing some. Or maybe that's the World Cup. In any case, if it's right that tonight was the FO's last FIFA game then presumably he wasn't scheduled for the Euros anyway and given the officials haven't yet been announced you'd think this should be easy to resolve, compared to an assistant going down with injury a few weeks beforehand for instance.

I'm pretty sure you are right ReadingFan. The teams that go to the tournaments are teams of 3 - Ref + 2 AR's, used to be teams of 5 as they would have regular AAR's as well, but the 4O appointment doesn't seem to be consistent in the same way. Didn't Turpin go to a Euro's or WC purely as a 4O when he was about 12 for experience? He'd not be the only one of course but I have a recollection of it being talked about because he was very young and inexperienced at the time.

Acme Thunderer · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 08:43 »

Quote from: bmb on Tue 08 Dec 2020 21:15

Press at the ground have allegedly been told he said

"âla negru, "(that) black one"

Had about 5 messages to ask me what the protocol is for identifying someone on the bench.

Also reported as this in today's Times. Unfortunate that the English translation has more sinister overtones but totally unnecessary and wrong anyway (if true).

BabyRef · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 09:06 »

A Romanian journalist who I follow on Twitter and trust said the 4th official said, when asked to identify which player to red card, said 'uru negra', or 'the black one'.

Is that racist? Not in my opinion. Is it a clever thing to say? Probably not, as shown by what transpired. Does feel a shame how it has blown up when I don't think there was any malicious intent from anyone.

OwdReds · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 09:31 »

According to the BBC players from both teams heard and responded to it. Basaksehir walked off but were supported by PSG in doing so. You just cannot make statements like that these days and probably never should have done.

DublinRef · « **Reply #34 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:05 »

In the aftermath as things become a little more clear as to what was said I think there are a few worrying trends developing. The first being that there seems to be a cohort of people who agree and see absolutely nothing wrong with what Coltescu said in fact there are some who even seem to 'support' this type of thing. Very troubling to think people hold these views imo.

In a sense equally concerning is a trend of labelling anyone who expresses the opinion that what Coltescu said was not racist rather just inappropriate or that even if the statement was racist that Coltescu is not himself a racist are accused themselves of being racist and their view therefore is to be ignored. I think this effort to suppress people's opinion is awful, I can absolutely see (although do not agree with) the stance that what Coltescu said was not racist. I don't think it is at all unreasonable to express this view and it is sad that any effort to debate this is stifled by accusations of racism. In my opinion this does not in any way help the cause of fighting against racism.

But anyway I don't mean to be overly political, briefly my own view is that the statement made by Coltescu is racist. I am not saying that Coltescu himself is a racist and I don't believe he meant to offend anyone. He just used language recklessly and without and appreciation for the gravity of his words. Ultimately though identifying a player by their race is deeply deeply wrong in my view and can not be tolerated. Therefore, given also the practical difficulties, I support UEFA's call to suspend the match.

Finally on this incident I truly hope that UEFA have the strength to make very clear in their investigation report that Hategan is totally innocent of any wrongdoing and appoint him exactly as they always would have. Punishing those associated with the incident but not guilty of anything in my view is entirely wrong regardless of the political pressure there may be to do so. I hope UEFA are strong in this manner but I doubt they will be.

Last point, somewhat separately - While I feel UEFA were totally correct to abandon last nights game, there have been two incidents in recent years where a referee and an AR in EL matches have been physically interfered with/attacked/assaulted by fans and UEFA allowed the match to continue. While these are unrelated incidents and not to be compared with racism I think it is important to highlight how UEFA do not back their referees in the correct way as they backed players in last nights incident.

BabyRef · « **Reply #35 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:15 »

Quote from: OwdReds on Wed 09 Dec 2020 09:31

According to the BBC players from both teams heard and responded to it. Basaksehir walked off but were supported by PSG in doing so. You just cannot make statements like that these days and probably never should have done.

The fact that the coach who was sent off was shouting 'Why did you say negro' undoubtedly inflamed things a bit - not sure everyone had the full facts at the time

Toprefm · « **Reply #36 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:30 »

Are UEFA potentially setting a dangerous precedent here?

Surely all the officials are miked up? Would not the referee and the VAR officials have heard what the FO said over the comms or can an official switch the comms off? It seems that the players and club officials have acted together having heard in their view a racist comment from the 4th official. They have in their view showed support for the person abused and I applaud that. However have the players and team officials acted as judge and jury in this matter by walking off?

There cannot possibly have been time for UEFA to organise a thorough investigation since last night but the game is been replaye/finished today thus appearing to back the actions of walking off and by association finding the 4th official did make racist comments.

For those more in the know Edy/BMB what happens if the 4th official is subsequently cleared are the players actions thus then potentially deemed wrong and that they caused the game to be abandoned? This could potentially be a right old mess to clear up.

DublinRef · « **Reply #37 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:49 »

Quote from: Toprefm on Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:30

Are UEFA potentially setting a dangerous precedent here?

Surely all the officials are miked up? Would not the referee and the VAR officials have heard what the FO said over the comms or can an official switch the comms off? It seems that the players and club officials have acted together having heard in their view a racist comment from the 4th official. They have in their view showed support for the person abused and I applaud that. However have the players and team officials acted as judge and jury in this matter by walking off?

There cannot possibly have been time for UEFA to organise a thorough investigation since last night but the game is been replaye/finished today thus appearing to back the actions of walking off and by association finding the 4th official did make racist comments.

For those more in the know Edy/BMB what happens if the 4th official is subsequently cleared are the players actions thus then potentially deemed wrong and that they caused the game to be abandoned? This could potentially be a right old mess to clear up.

I believe all officials communications via the mic is recorded. AFAIK the fourth official does not have an open mic like the AR's and referee. So he has to use a PTT button to be heard on the comms, if he has not pushed this button to talk to Hategan then I don't think what he said will have been recorded, unless he was close enough that Hategan's mic picked it up.

Like you say Edy/bmb can correct me on that. Regardless though he seemed afterwards to acknowledge that he had indeed said what he was accused of

guest42 · « **Reply #38 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:58 »

The other thing that people are missing here - Webo is wearing a lanyard with his photo and his NAME on it. Wouldn’t take much for the FO to surreptitiously clock the name on the accreditation - using that instead of some crude terminology.

Ref Watcher · « **Reply #39 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 11:17 »

Quote from: BabyRef on Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:15

Quote from: OwdReds on Wed 09 Dec 2020 09:31
According to the BBC players from both teams heard and responded to it. Basaksehir walked off but were supported by PSG in doing so. You just cannot make statements like that these days and probably never should have done.

The fact that the coach who was sent off was shouting 'Why did you say negro' undoubtedly inflamed things a bit - not sure everyone had the full facts at the time

If the referee asked the fourth official to identify the person he had a problem with and he did so by saying (in Romanian) 'the black one', I can't honestly see a problem. I was under the impression that 'black' is terminology that is considered acceptable. It's no different from saying 'the blond one' or 'the short one'. I think the problem here is that other people didn't hear the Romanian phrase. The coach clearly heard the word 'negro' which, of course, has a whole a whole different connotation. If that is indeed the case, it absolutely beggars belief that the problem couldn't be sorted out with calm explanations and apologies for any inadvertent offence caused.

RefObserver · « **Reply #40 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 13:13 »

No matter if it was an offensive remark made intentionally or has been interpreted wrongly, it is a mess and I hope it is sorted within a suitable time frame and does not drag on and on.

I have seen in the media that the 4th official Sebastian Coltescu was demoted in 2007 and that, along with some personal problems resulted in an attempted suicide.

Clearly if proven action will be taken, but there does need to be an acute awareness of the wellbeing of all four officials involved as well.

A thoroughly unpleasant incident all round that has sent shockwaves around the world.

bmb · « **Reply #41 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 13:15 »

The question has been raised as to if he said "ăla negru" ("the black guy") or "ăla in negru" (The guy dressed in black)

Hopefully either one of the TV cameras or Hategan's mic will have picked up which it was. It will change things immensely if he said "ăla in negru" not just "ăla negru" as he will have been referring to clothing colour not skin colour. The Romanian term for describing someone of the black race is actually "de rasă neagră".

Quote from: BabyRef on Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:15

The fact that the coach who was sent off was shouting 'Why did you say negro' undoubtedly inflamed things a bit - not sure everyone had the full facts at the time

The problem is the Romanian word for the colour black is "negru" and the pronunciation of it will sound like "negro" as the u in Romanian is more like the English oh sound. The coach is unlikely to have known the Romanian word for black, I only know because I watch a lot of Romanian football & have Romanian friends so I have heard it before. That is simply a matter of a language issue. The Romanian racial slur that would be the equivalent of the word negro is very different (“Cioară”), negru is simply the word for the colour black with no racial connotations attached to it at all. We all know how inflamatory the word negro is and I think it is unfortunate the 2 words sound alike and the likelihood is that negru has been misinterpreted.

Whether he should have used the word negru in the first place of course is a completely different kettle of fish! It was foolhardy at best. Personally I do not believe that the 4O intended anything racially BUT he should not have used the word negru, that is simply wrong. If it turns out it was "ăla in negru" (The guy dressed in black) that he said, that also changes everything in terms of whether it was wrong or right because it is a very different starting point to "ăla negru" (The black guy)

edy · « **Reply #42 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 13:18 »

UEFA Statement:

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/0264-110c3247d6b4-6187b8a7e84f-1000--update-paris-saint-germain-vs-istanbul-basaksehir/

Quote

9 December: Ethics and Disciplinary Inspector appointed

In accordance with the Article 31(4) of the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations, an Ethics and Disciplinary Inspector has been appointed today to conduct a disciplinary investigation regarding the incident and the events that led to the UEFA Champions League group match between Paris Saint-Germain-İstanbul Başakşehir FK being abandoned. Information in regards to this investigation will be made available in due course.

bmb · « **Reply #43 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 13:25 »

Quote from: Toprefm on Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:30

Are UEFA potentially setting a dangerous precedent here?

Surely all the officials are miked up? Would not the referee and the VAR officials have heard what the FO said over the comms or can an official switch the comms off? It seems that the players and club officials have acted together having heard in their view a racist comment from the 4th official. They have in their view showed support for the person abused and I applaud that. However have the players and team officials acted as judge and jury in this matter by walking off?

There cannot possibly have been time for UEFA to organise a thorough investigation since last night but the game is been replaye/finished today thus appearing to back the actions of walking off and by association finding the 4th official did make racist comments.

For those more in the know Edy/BMB what happens if the 4th official is subsequently cleared are the players actions thus then potentially deemed wrong and that they caused the game to be abandoned? This could potentially be a right old mess to clear up.

The players actions would not be deemed wrong even if the 4O is completely cleared. They have reacted to a very emotive subject, in the way they are told to do - walk off the pitch. If that has been caused by a misinterpretation due to a language barrier then sobeit, they acted as they thought best at the time, they will not be condemned for that and nor should they be. However a very public apology should be issued to the 4O if that is the case.

If he pressed his button to speak to Hategan then it could be cleared up, either way, in minutes as the recording can simply be listened to. If he didn't press his button as he thought Hategan was close enough to hear him then it might not be quite so simple as the recording and all TV recordings will need to be listened to in order to establish if any picked up the full phrase of what he actually said.

ajb95 · « **Reply #44 on:** Wed 09 Dec 2020 13:29 »

Quote from: bmb on Wed 09 Dec 2020 13:15

The question has been raised as to if he said "ăla negru" ("the black guy") or "ăla in negru" (The guy dressed in black)

Hopefully either one of the TV cameras or Hategan's mic will have picked up which it was. It will change things immensely if he said "ăla in negru" not just "ăla negru" as he will have been referring to clothing colour not skin colour. The Romanian term for describing someone of the black race is actually "de rasă neagră".

Quote from: BabyRef on Wed 09 Dec 2020 10:15
The fact that the coach who was sent off was shouting 'Why did you say negro' undoubtedly inflamed things a bit - not sure everyone had the full facts at the time

The problem is the Romanian word for the colour black is "negru" and the pronunciation of it will sound like "negro" as the u in Romanian is more like the English oh sound. The coach is unlikely to have known the Romanian word for black, I only know because I watch a lot of Romanian football & have Romanian friends so I have heard it before. That is simply a matter of a language issue. The Romanian racial slur that would be the equivalent of the word negro is very different, negru is simply the word for the colour black with no racial connotations attached to it at all. We all know how inflamatory the word negro is and I think it is unfortunate the 2 words sound alike and the likelihood is that negru has been misinterpreted.

Whether he should have used the word negru in the first place of course is a completely different kettle of fish! It was foolhardy at best. Personally I do not believe that the 4O intended anything racially BUT he should not have used the word negru, that is simply wrong. If it turns out it was "ăla in negru" (The guy dressed in black) that he said, that also changes everything in terms of whether it was wrong or right because it is a very different starting point to "ăla negru" (The black guy)

But that’s the same in most European languages: negro is Portuguese for black; negra in Spanish; Nero in Italian and noir in French.

Just because someone uses the word black doesn’t mean anything to do with race or anything. I agree with refwatchers excellent post above

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Author Topic: PSG v Istanbul (Read 4163 times)

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