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Author Topic: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT  (Read 3224 times)

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Leggy

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #30 on: Mon 01 May 2023 17:35 »
I have not commented on this site for some time and likely will not do so again. There are many fantastic posters on here but I have become a little disillusioned with the lack of even the smallest amount impartiality some posters are able to muster when commenting on the performance of a referee who officiates a match involving the team they support.

I felt compelled, however, to comment on this thread, as I felt that today summed up everything wrong with Premier League refereeing. Let me start by saying that I place little blame on Paul Tierney and John Brooks, I think they are only doing what their bosses want. In a sense, I don't even place full blame on Mr. Klopp, yes his behavior (like many, if not most managers) towards officials is appalling but nothing has been put in place in terms of deterrent by the league for this type of action. Likewise for players, it seems that screaming the face of officials and generally behaving like children (and that is an insult to most children) is ok in the Premier League.

I think that there were two incidents of SFP today. One from each team. I also think that in neither case would the Premier League like referees to actually apply the laws. So I cannot blame Mr. Tierney. After Liverpool's final goal, a fantastic piece of skill, Mr. Klopp's first reaction was to run to the 4th official John Brooks, stand close to him, and appear to scream in his face. This action is totally unacceptable by any measure, there is absolutely no justification. It should have been met with a red card from the referee and a lengthy suspension from the authorities. This is not passion, it is abuse. His team had scored. He was more interested in abusing the officials than celebrating with his players and fans. Again though, I feel I cannot blame Mr. Brooks. He likely wants a lengthy career.

In terms of Mr. Tierney refusing to shake Mr. Klopp's hand, which I did not personally see, I agree with Whistleblower. I personally like to always shake hands with everyone at the end of a match however, I can understand being reluctant to shake the hand of someone who has treated you with no respect during the game appears to be further dissenting in the aftermath.

Two final points - Firstly, the Tottenham coach should also have been dismissed, however his actions pale compared to Klopp's disrespect. Secondly, on the idea that Mr. Tierney may have spoken out of turn when cautioning Mr. Klopp, there is no evidence for this, other than an insinuation from Mr. Klopp which one could see as deliberately vague so as to stoke up conspiratorial ire among fans towards the referee. All conversations are recorded so the PGMOL will know soon. To complain about a referee's speech, publicly, then refuse to say what was actually said, to me at least, seems rather suspect and not in any way helpful.

I am sure that Liverpool fans will say that I am attacking their team. I can assure them that I do not support any Premier League team, nor any soccer team at all. I am only interested in officiating. I would also hope that long time contributors, while not always agreeing with my comments, will know that I also post in as fair a manner as I can.

My final comment is that Premier League refereeing is in a very poor state. Referees are not truly referees anymore but occasion managers. Every attempt seems to be made to tolerate poor behavior of players both in terms of foul play and the constant abuse of officials. It seems it is the desire of the powers that be that 22 players be kept on the pitch, almost at all costs. I am not sure who is served by this approach but I don't feel it is working and I don't think it will end well. I wish all referees the very best and hope that they, collectively, will change their approach.

I agree with every word written above (except for the American spelling of "behaviour"!!)
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bruntyboy

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #31 on: Mon 01 May 2023 18:43 »
Dermott Gallagher gave his opinion on Paul Tierney and some of the talking points. He feels Jotta was very lucky not to get a red card and a similar incident in a European match would result in a red card. So first question is why the difference? Putting the case for yellow you could argue that Jota got his foot in first and the Spurs player invaded Jota's space. Translating, Jota got there first and controlled that space. Personally, putting a foot up that high is potentially dangerous and should be heavily punished especially if contact is made with the head.
As for the yellow for Klopp, Gallagher suggests that it was for what he said as that was the offence he committed and presumably the correct card, there being no justification for a red even though it could be deemed aggressive behaviour!
As always, another point of view or at least an insight into the referee's thought process and as we know the game is often about opinions.

In which case why did Casemiro get a RC against Southampton as he got to the ball first and then using your phrase the Southampton player invaded his space?

Also on a separate point using your European comparison there's been many "handball" penalty incidents in the Premier League which haven't been given as penalties whereas in Europe they would have been. In Europe going into a challenge with a "foot up" is always considered a foul whereas in the Premier League it often isn't. 
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Ref Fan

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #32 on: Mon 01 May 2023 19:22 »
Dermott Gallagher gave his opinion on Paul Tierney and some of the talking points. He feels Jotta was very lucky not to get a red card and a similar incident in a European match would result in a red card. So first question is why the difference? Putting the case for yellow you could argue that Jota got his foot in first and the Spurs player invaded Jota's space. Translating, Jota got there first and controlled that space. Personally, putting a foot up that high is potentially dangerous and should be heavily punished especially if contact is made with the head.
As for the yellow for Klopp, Gallagher suggests that it was for what he said as that was the offence he committed and presumably the correct card, there being no justification for a red even though it could be deemed aggressive behaviour!
As always, another point of view or at least an insight into the referee's thought process and as we know the game is often about opinions.

What I found interesting was the reaction to the Skipp challenge on Diaz.  DG as a former referee said it wasn't a RC and that a YC would have been correct.  The 2 pundits, both ex footballers, on the other hand thought RC.  Didn't see it at the time as it was in the first half but do I gather a foul wasn't even given?
Dermot wouldn't be drawn on Klopp's comments after the game as to whether they inferred Tierney had an agenda against Liverpool.
Smith and Warnock though seemed more sympathetic generally towards Managers who showed passion during a game without being pressed on what was not acceptable. 
At least, that's how I heard it but stand to be corrected.
« Last Edit: Mon 01 May 2023 19:41 by Ref Fan »

Whistleblower

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #33 on: Mon 01 May 2023 20:54 »
Klopp is reported as saying that he was wrong to be so "in the face" of John Brooks. Well, at least it is something that he realises his abusive behaviour was unacceptable and I hope, if he has any decency in him which he may well have, that he offers a private apology to Brooks whom I am sure would be gracious enough to accept.

What I think is potentially more serious is his attempt to smear Paul Tierney with such vague and unsubstantiated allegations. I am pleased the PGMOL has completely exonerated Tierney from any unprofessionalism and so while he is on the phone, Klopp should also call Tierney and offer an apology for the disgraceful slur which he attempted to perpetrate.

I think PL referees are now caught between a rock and a hard place in that the powers that be seem reluctant to offer serious sanctions for serious misdemeanours and seem to expect match officials to put up with intolerable abuse.
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cwh

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #34 on: Tue 02 May 2023 04:49 »
Klopp is reported as saying that he was wrong to be so "in the face" of John Brooks. Well, at least it is something that he realises his abusive behaviour was unacceptable and I hope, if he has any decency in him which he may well have, that he offers a private apology to Brooks whom I am sure would be gracious enough to accept.

What I think is potentially more serious is his attempt to smear Paul Tierney with such vague and unsubstantiated allegations. I am pleased the PGMOL has completely exonerated Tierney from any unprofessionalism and so while he is on the phone, Klopp should also call Tierney and offer an apology for the disgraceful slur which he attempted to perpetrate.

I think PL referees are now caught between a rock and a hard place in that the powers that be seem reluctant to offer serious sanctions for serious misdemeanours and seem to expect match officials to put up with intolerable abuse.

I agree with all you say except that 'so called apologies' mean absolutely nothing these days (this applies to other situations outside of football such as politics etc)and do they really mean it anyway? - I also think this way about H Webb phoning apologies to clubs on behalf referees about decisions made - does it really make any difference? I wouldn't think so - all this may sound a bit cynical but that is how I feel
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Whistleblower

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #35 on: Tue 02 May 2023 08:21 »
Klopp is reported as saying that he was wrong to be so "in the face" of John Brooks. Well, at least it is something that he realises his abusive behaviour was unacceptable and I hope, if he has any decency in him which he may well have, that he offers a private apology to Brooks whom I am sure would be gracious enough to accept.

What I think is potentially more serious is his attempt to smear Paul Tierney with such vague and unsubstantiated allegations. I am pleased the PGMOL has completely exonerated Tierney from any unprofessionalism and so while he is on the phone, Klopp should also call Tierney and offer an apology for the disgraceful slur which he attempted to perpetrate.

I think PL referees are now caught between a rock and a hard place in that the powers that be seem reluctant to offer serious sanctions for serious misdemeanours and seem to expect match officials to put up with intolerable abuse.

I agree with all you say except that 'so called apologies' mean absolutely nothing these days (this applies to other situations outside of football such as politics etc)and do they really mean it anyway? - I also think this way about H Webb phoning apologies to clubs on behalf referees about decisions made - does it really make any difference? I wouldn't think so - all this may sound a bit cynical but that is how I feel


Only the giver of an apology knows how genuine is the contrition. However an apology, even if not particularly sincerely meant, is an open acknowledgement of something perpetrated which was wrong and that is not inconsequential.

Arbitre anglais

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #36 on: Tue 02 May 2023 09:09 »
The officials, as a group, really do need to get tougher. Surely Klopp’s defence to any charge would be - if it was anything bad, why didn’t the officials deal with it at the time?? RCs and long stadium bans would soon make people think twice.  The FA have a lot to answer for, but it shouldn’t be there to deal with stuff the onfield officials plainly saw and failed to deal with (just to give ineffective punishments when they do …). It’s great officials keeping calm and not overreacting, but Brooks just standing there and ignoring Klopp looks very weak.

Both highlighted challenges were clear RCs. The kick to the face was blatant SFP - normal heading height, and if you catch a player with studs in the face at that height, it has to be SFP. The other Skipp challenge was more forgivable to only give YC onfield (VAR should’ve helped upgrade to RC) but it wasn’t even given as a foul!
« Last Edit: Tue 02 May 2023 09:17 by Arbitre anglais »
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Rosstheref

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #37 on: Tue 02 May 2023 12:12 »
It would be interesting if they released the audio- however I doubt they will.
I'm surprised Tierney was given this game as he had the reverse fixture earlier in the season.

jacksamuel21

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #38 on: Tue 02 May 2023 14:18 »
Klopp: "Paul Tierney came over to me, I didn't expect for a second a red card, and he said: 'For me it's a red card but because of him (the 4th official) it's a yellow'."

Quote from Klopp today


I can see why Klopp could easily have taken this as Tierney using previous history into account. How would he know what had happened from 50 yards away while looking in the wrong direction.

If Tierney saw it and thought it was red, why didn't he show him a red? Surely he would if he didn't like Klopp

It would be interesting if they released the audio- however I doubt they will.
I'm surprised Tierney was given this game as he had the reverse fixture earlier in the season.

Tierney did the reverse last season, where he was a shambles. Madley did the reverse earlier this season
« Last Edit: Tue 02 May 2023 16:22 by jacksamuel21 »

Whistleblower

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #39 on: Tue 02 May 2023 17:38 »
A very good piece in today's Times by Henry Winter about the subject entitled " More transparency needed, Jurgen, not trolling and toxicity " though he rather ungenerously calls Tierney "a 6/10 referee "  Winter makes the excellent point that Howard Webb is prepared to defend his referees and his public statement that nothing in the recorded conversation suggested any unprofessionalism on Tierney's part is most welcome. Winter also analyses Tierney's officiating at recent matches involving Liverpool and comprehensively shows that any accusation of unfair treatment bears no scrutiny whatsoever.

My view is that Klopp has rather shown himself up in this incident, what my erstwhile clerk would have called a silly twit, or something like that !
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jacksamuel21

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #40 on: Tue 02 May 2023 22:54 »
A very good piece in today's Times by Henry Winter about the subject entitled " More transparency needed, Jurgen, not trolling and toxicity " though he rather ungenerously calls Tierney "a 6/10 referee "  Winter makes the excellent point that Howard Webb is prepared to defend his referees and his public statement that nothing in the recorded conversation suggested any unprofessionalism on Tierney's part is most welcome. Winter also analyses Tierney's officiating at recent matches involving Liverpool and comprehensively shows that any accusation of unfair treatment bears no scrutiny whatsoever.



My view is that Klopp has rather shown himself up in this incident, what my erstwhile clerk would have called a silly twit, or something like that !

Agree on the second point, it’s making things worse.

Agree with Henry Winter on Tierney being 6/10 he really is quite average

Readingfan

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #41 on: Wed 03 May 2023 04:46 »
A very good piece in today's Times by Henry Winter about the subject entitled " More transparency needed, Jurgen, not trolling and toxicity " though he rather ungenerously calls Tierney "a 6/10 referee "  Winter makes the excellent point that Howard Webb is prepared to defend his referees and his public statement that nothing in the recorded conversation suggested any unprofessionalism on Tierney's part is most welcome. Winter also analyses Tierney's officiating at recent matches involving Liverpool and comprehensively shows that any accusation of unfair treatment bears no scrutiny whatsoever.

My view is that Klopp has rather shown himself up in this incident, what my erstwhile clerk would have called a silly twit, or something like that !

I agree it's good that Webb is prepared to stand up for referees, although Rory Smith did make the point on 5 Live that the PGMOL releasing a statement is perhaps not the most independent process - he suggested it would be a bit like the Tories investigating parties at Downing Street. I do think it would be good if they released the full audio, to help with transparency.
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TillysDad

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #42 on: Wed 03 May 2023 08:10 »
I don’t think they could release it until after the case has been heard by the FA

jacksamuel21

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #43 on: Wed 03 May 2023 11:08 »
Lots of this article is absolutely correct https://tomkinstimes.substack.com/p/paul-tierney-refereeing-liverpool?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yes its from a biased angle but it backs up the points liverpool fans have been saying about Tierney and Atkinson for years. Yes all teams have a referee but Chelsea have had Taylor twice all season, Oliver has done City twice. Liverpool have had Tierney 7 times !!!

Frankly ridiculous. A referee doing almost a quarter of a teams games throughout the season is having a large impact on their final position. Especially when you include games he has been VAR on, and all 50/50 decisions go against.

Liverpool are so far behind other top teams in terms of big decisions as highlighted in the article. Differential treatment occurs with Salah getting nothing (two clear fouls missed on Salah have led to both of Klopp's outbursts this season) compared to Grealish who gets a penalty for being breathed on.
« Last Edit: Wed 03 May 2023 14:50 by jacksamuel21 »

ajb95

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Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
« Reply #44 on: Wed 03 May 2023 13:53 »
Lots of this article is absolutely correct https://tomkinstimes.substack.com/p/paul-tierney-refereeing-liverpool?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yes its from a biased angle but it backs up the points liverpool fans have been saying about Tierney and Atkinson for years. Yes all teams have a referee but Chelsea have had Taylor twice all season, Oliver has done City twice. Liverpool have had Tierney 7 times !!!

Frankly ridiculous. A referee doing almost a quarter of a teams games throughout the season is having a large impact on their final position. Especially when you include games he has been VAR on, and all 50/50 decisions go against.

It’s not tierneys fault he has been appointed 7 times that is the PL. and it is quite ridiculous when nearly half of Liverpool’s games this season have been referees by 1/6th of the PL referee list