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Author Topic: Newcastle v Man City - Martin Atkinson VAR Craig Pawson  (Read 2204 times)

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Readingfan

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A Newcastle penalty all day long. I suspect that Atko may have been take by surprise by Ederson's actions in rushing out of his goal and taking out Fraser, particularly as Cancelo had come across to clear. If this was the case, then VAR Pawson should have intervened to get MA to the monitor for a review.

On MOTD last night they said they were told by the PGMOL that it wasn't a penalty because Cancelo had already cleared the ball (and the foul on Fraser had no impact on the clearance)!

The PGMOL really don't help themselves.  Just tell it as it is - ref and VAR called that one wrong, it happens.

Everyone would respect that far more than their how can we waffle our way out of this one & pretend it wasn't an error.  They make themselves look like idiots and the subsequent negativity towards the match officials increases because of it. Just be honest, accept they have made a mistake, they're mere human beings, it's going to happen sometimes, that's life & football.

I agree the PGMO's communication isn't very good, although I sometimes wonder if the PGMO are justifying the decision and claiming the officials got it correct, or if they're simply saying why the officials made the judgement and not providing further detail on whether it was correct.

Would the PGMO do a full assessment of each decision on the day of a game and would they have senior people on hand to provide a judgement on if the decision was right? Or would it just be a junior person who's heard what the referee has said to the players and is conveying that to the media?

This is another reason why I'd like to hear the audio between the officials, because we currently seem to have a situation where muddled explanations are communicated to the broadcasters and then delivered second hand to the public and some of the nuance is likely to be lost in that process.

In terms of the overall discussion, I can't comment on any incidents from this season specifically but I agree with the point that a lot of the issues centre on the Premier League's process and directives - it seems the VAR often isn't really being asked to use their ability as an elite official to judge an incident but just decide if the referee's reasoning for their initial decision has any faint degree of credibility. It feels the bar is sometimes so high they are more being asked to act as defence lawyers than match officials!

Chris Kavanagh and Craig Pawson have done various high profile UEFA games as VAR and it generally seems to operate more smoothly there than PL so, in the main, I don't think it particulary comes down to individuals, although of course some will be better than others.

For this reason, I'm not sure if using a dedicated team of VAR officials would especially help right now. The current group have had a few years of experience and generally seem to have improved along the way. I guess you either use some of them anyway, in which case you have to make it worthwhile for them to give up active refereeing, or you have to find completely new people and then spend a few years training them up. I guess in time current SG1 referees will naturally retire and some will become VARs only, as Lee Mason has.
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nemesis

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A Newcastle penalty all day long. I suspect that Atko may have been take by surprise by Ederson's actions in rushing out of his goal and taking out Fraser, particularly as Cancelo had come across to clear. If this was the case, then VAR Pawson should have intervened to get MA to the monitor for a review.

On MOTD last night they said they were told by the PGMOL that it wasn't a penalty because Cancelo had already cleared the ball (and the foul on Fraser had no impact on the clearance)!

The PGMOL really don't help themselves.  Just tell it as it is - ref and VAR called that one wrong, it happens.

Everyone would respect that far more than their how can we waffle our way out of this one & pretend it wasn't an error.  They make themselves look like idiots and the subsequent negativity towards the match officials increases because of it. Just be honest, accept they have made a mistake, they're mere human beings, it's going to happen sometimes, that's life & football.

It does indeed happen and frankly it is happening far too often.

The process whereby these referees take it turns to VAR for each other is clearly not working. Set up a dedicated team of VAR experts to do the job; we don't need a body of referees collectively marking their own homework.

One of the most intriguing aspects of this site is the wonder of who are referees, and who are fans of the game. I presume you are in the latter camp. Of course your opinion is welcomed, but not being a referee, you are not going to familiar with aspects of the game.

For starters, no referee wants to be a VAR. Secondly, it’s a highly skilled position and that’s why they use elite officials and don’t simply fulfil appointments with lower category referees.

To note, 4th officials are often from a lower category as it’s a useful stepping stone and allowing for access and familiarity, before (hopefully) those officials are ready for the higher level. Notably, VAR is not that.

VAR is not ‘marking homework’. They are an integral member of the team, and (as is quite apparent) as capable of mistakes as any of the on-field officials.

The current problem with VAR is a process issue, and not a training issue.

I think nemesis has been posting on here long enough and has a level of knowledge and insight that probably deserves a more respectful opening gambit.

It wasn't meant to sound disrespectful, but I appreciate that's how it may have come across, so I'm sorry for that.

When using the term "these referees", that reads like an out-group looking in.  Otherwise, my other points are factual and provide better context.

No referee wants to be a VAR, so it's a non-starter.  Also, being 'marked' (as it were) by people who don't understand the game is never going to work.

Firstly you apologise for your arrogant and disrespectful, not to mention simply inaccurate, comments then you go and do it again !!!

Having watched several thousand football matches live, played in several hundred and refereed a similar number followed by around 25 years as a key official for a league providing grassroots football for a sadly diminishing number of clubs, I do really feel I have a good grasp of most aspects of the game.

You are actually supporting my argument in a way. No (elite) referee wants to be a VAR ? Perhaps that's why they are doing it so badly. I generally perform better at something I want to do. They don't want to be VARs so take the burden of this onerous task away from them. Contrary to what you are saying there are hundreds, no thousands, of referees who would love to earn a good living as a VAR expert. This would include a huge number who are physically unable to meet the fitness requirements of even lower grade football.

To suggest that elite referees are the only people who "understand the game" is crass and ludicrous. Players, managers, coaches and yes even supporters as well as referees understand the game. Not all of course and some better than others but certainly a big enough pool to recruit a team of VAR experts from. You don't have to have spent years working up through the ranks of non-league football, toadying to those in power or working as a County FA crony to "understand the game".

I maintain that the current system whereby the VARs are too emotionally involved with their close colleagues to be objective, is not working very well. And just how great an understanding of the game do you have to have to see that Harry Kane's foul ticked all the boxes for a red card. One example of many.

Season's Greetings to all.
« Last Edit: Wed 22 Dec 2021 14:30 by nemesis »
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Affy_Moose

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A Newcastle penalty all day long. I suspect that Atko may have been take by surprise by Ederson's actions in rushing out of his goal and taking out Fraser, particularly as Cancelo had come across to clear. If this was the case, then VAR Pawson should have intervened to get MA to the monitor for a review.

On MOTD last night they said they were told by the PGMOL that it wasn't a penalty because Cancelo had already cleared the ball (and the foul on Fraser had no impact on the clearance)!

The PGMOL really don't help themselves.  Just tell it as it is - ref and VAR called that one wrong, it happens.

Everyone would respect that far more than their how can we waffle our way out of this one & pretend it wasn't an error.  They make themselves look like idiots and the subsequent negativity towards the match officials increases because of it. Just be honest, accept they have made a mistake, they're mere human beings, it's going to happen sometimes, that's life & football.

It does indeed happen and frankly it is happening far too often.

The process whereby these referees take it turns to VAR for each other is clearly not working. Set up a dedicated team of VAR experts to do the job; we don't need a body of referees collectively marking their own homework.

One of the most intriguing aspects of this site is the wonder of who are referees, and who are fans of the game. I presume you are in the latter camp. Of course your opinion is welcomed, but not being a referee, you are not going to familiar with aspects of the game.

For starters, no referee wants to be a VAR. Secondly, it’s a highly skilled position and that’s why they use elite officials and don’t simply fulfil appointments with lower category referees.

To note, 4th officials are often from a lower category as it’s a useful stepping stone and allowing for access and familiarity, before (hopefully) those officials are ready for the higher level. Notably, VAR is not that.

VAR is not ‘marking homework’. They are an integral member of the team, and (as is quite apparent) as capable of mistakes as any of the on-field officials.

The current problem with VAR is a process issue, and not a training issue.

I think nemesis has been posting on here long enough and has a level of knowledge and insight that probably deserves a more respectful opening gambit.

It wasn't meant to sound disrespectful, but I appreciate that's how it may have come across, so I'm sorry for that.

When using the term "these referees", that reads like an out-group looking in.  Otherwise, my other points are factual and provide better context.

No referee wants to be a VAR, so it's a non-starter.  Also, being 'marked' (as it were) by people who don't understand the game is never going to work.

Firstly you apologise for your arrogant and disrespectful, not to mention simply inaccurate, comments then you go and do it again !!!

Having watched several thousand football matches live, played in several hundred and refereed a similar number followed by around 25 years as a key official for a league providing grassroots football for a sadly diminishing number of clubs, I do really feel I have a good grasp of most aspects of the game.

You are actually supporting my argument in a way. No (elite) referee wants to be a VAR ? Perhaps that's why they are doing it so badly. I generally perform better at something I want to do. They don't want to be VARs so take the burden of this onerous task away from them. Contrary to what you are saying there are hundreds, no thousands, of referees who would love to earn a good living as a VAR expert. This would include a huge number who are physically unable to meet the fitness requirements of even lower grade football.

To suggest that elite referees are the only people who "understand the game" is crass and ludicrous. Players, managers, coaches and yes even supporters as well as referees understand the game. Not all of course and some better than others but certainly a big enough pool to recruit a team of VAR experts from. You don't have to have spent years working up through the ranks of non-league football, toadying to those in power or working as a County FA crony to "understand the game".

I maintain that the current system whereby the VARs are too emotionally involved with their close colleagues to be objective, is not working very well. And just how great an understanding of the game do you have to have to see that Harry Kane's foul ticked all the boxes for a red card. One example of many.

Season's Greetings to all.

With respect, VAR is a member of refereeing team.  How on earth could it possibly work if VAR is not a qualified official?  Perhaps the 4th official or ARs should be appointed by experienced coaches or fans?  Just because VAR sits on a monitor doesn't mean that it can be done by someone whose experience of officiating football is... what? non-existent?

Only elite officials understand refereeing elite games.  That is what was intended by that reference.  That is neither outrageous, nor a particularly novel concept.  I am a senior-listed official who officiates with FIFA referees.  I am (I would believe) perfectly competent at my level, and will go further, but the idea that I could walk into being a competent VAR at a much higher level without any experience officiating at it is - to be frank - really rather ludicrous.

Beyond, I'm sure your point was somewhat throwaway, but if attending football matches was substitute for expertise, then any number of fans would be highly competent and knowledgeable with the LotG.  And why would this only apply to refereeing, perhaps they should also coach at that level to?  By virtue of watching games, playing football, and being involved in league committees?  I'm sure you can see the limit to that - a point you seem to have taken rather personally.

Besides, my point is that you shouldn't (and couldn't!) appoint a VAR from a lower division to input to a referee officiating at an elite level.  The expectations are totally, completely, and utterly different.  As I am sure you would agree.

If we're going to use personal anecdote to support an opinion, then here is mine.

As a senior-listed official who from one week may run the line to an Elite FIFA official, to the next week officiating with a referee who, though refereeing in the football pyramid, is far newer to the game, I can tell you confidently that appointing anyone but referees experienced in the same leagues they are conducting VAR for is a wildly bad idea.

Beyond all of this, whilst VAR is a challenging concept for all leagues, only England is making such a pig's ear of it.  It's an application issue, not requiring a wholesale change of the entire way football is officiated.
« Last Edit: Wed 22 Dec 2021 16:17 by Affy_Moose »

nemesis

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With respect, VAR is a member of refereeing team.  How on earth could it possibly work if VAR is not a qualified official?  Perhaps the 4th official or ARs should be appointed by experienced coaches or fans?  Just because VAR sits on a monitor doesn't mean that it can be done by someone whose experience of officiating football is... what? non-existent?

Only elite officials understand refereeing elite games.  That is what was intended by that reference.  That is neither outrageous, nor a particularly novel concept.  I am a senior-listed official who officiates with FIFA referees.  I am (I would believe) perfectly competent at my level, and will go further, but the idea that I could walk into being a competent VAR at a much higher level without any experience officiating at it is - to be frank - really rather ludicrous.

Beyond, I'm sure your point was somewhat throwaway, but if attending football matches was substitute for expertise, then any number of fans would be highly competent and knowledgeable with the LotG.  And why would this only apply to refereeing, perhaps they should also coach at that level to?  By virtue of watching games, playing football, and being involved in league committees?  I'm sure you can see the limit to that - a point you seem to have taken rather personally.

Besides, my point is that you shouldn't (and couldn't!) appoint a VAR from a lower division to input to a referee officiating at an elite level.  The expectations are totally, completely, and utterly different.  As I am sure you would agree.

If we're going to use personal anecdote to support an opinion, then here is mine.

As a senior-listed official who from one week may run the line to an Elite FIFA official, to the next week officiating with a referee who, though refereeing in the football pyramid, is far newer to the game, I can tell you confidently that appointing anyone but referees experienced in the same leagues they are conducting VAR for is a wildly bad idea.

Beyond all of this, whilst VAR is a challenging concept for all leagues, only England is making such a pig's ear of it.  It's an application issue, not requiring a wholesale change of the entire way football is officiated.

Thank you for stating that you didn't mean what you put originally.  Perhaps you could clarify what you have put instead?

The fatuous suggestion that ARs and FOs should be appointed by fans has no relevance to the issue.

Maybe you could illustrate a few factors relating to the decision making process in elite matches that couldn't possibly be comprehended by you, a lesser referee or me ?
I agree there is no substitute for experience for the officials actually out there interacting with the players and that is why the incremental experience at the various levels is so important for moulding a top referee. But to sit in a studio and adjudicate on the technology, surely that's not necessary ? They would, of course, receive thorough training.


« Last Edit: Thu 23 Dec 2021 15:57 by nemesis »

nemesis

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With respect, VAR is a member of refereeing team.  How on earth could it possibly work if VAR is not a qualified official?  Perhaps the 4th official or ARs should be appointed by experienced coaches or fans?  Just because VAR sits on a monitor doesn't mean that it can be done by someone whose experience of officiating football is... what? non-existent?

Only elite officials understand refereeing elite games.  That is what was intended by that reference.  That is neither outrageous, nor a particularly novel concept.  I am a senior-listed official who officiates with FIFA referees.  I am (I would believe) perfectly competent at my level, and will go further, but the idea that I could walk into being a competent VAR at a much higher level without any experience officiating at it is - to be frank - really rather ludicrous.

Beyond, I'm sure your point was somewhat throwaway, but if attending football matches was substitute for expertise, then any number of fans would be highly competent and knowledgeable with the LotG.  And why would this only apply to refereeing, perhaps they should also coach at that level to?  By virtue of watching games, playing football, and being involved in league committees?  I'm sure you can see the limit to that - a point you seem to have taken rather personally.

Besides, my point is that you shouldn't (and couldn't!) appoint a VAR from a lower division to input to a referee officiating at an elite level.  The expectations are totally, completely, and utterly different.  As I am sure you would agree.

If we're going to use personal anecdote to support an opinion, then here is mine.

As a senior-listed official who from one week may run the line to an Elite FIFA official, to the next week officiating with a referee who, though refereeing in the football pyramid, is far newer to the game, I can tell you confidently that appointing anyone but referees experienced in the same leagues they are conducting VAR for is a wildly bad idea.

Beyond all of this, whilst VAR is a challenging concept for all leagues, only England is making such a pig's ear of it.  It's an application issue, not requiring a wholesale change of the entire way football is officiated.

Thank you for stating that you didn't mean what you put originally.  Perhaps you could clarify what you have put instead?

The fatuous suggestion that ARs and FOs should be appointed by fans has no relevance to the issue.

Maybe you could illustrate a few factors relating to the decision making process in elite matches that couldn't possibly be comprehended by you, a lesser referee or me ?
I agree there is no substitute for experience for the officials actually out there interacting with the players and that is why the incremental experience at the various levels is so important for moulding a top referee. But to sit in a studio and adjudicate on the technology, surely that's not necessary ? They would, of course, receive thorough training.

Well, it's looking like that's a no, you couldn't.  Shame, you having rubbished my suggestion I was hoping to learn more about your reasoning.

bruntyboy

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A Newcastle penalty all day long. I suspect that Atko may have been take by surprise by Ederson's actions in rushing out of his goal and taking out Fraser, particularly as Cancelo had come across to clear. If this was the case, then VAR Pawson should have intervened to get MA to the monitor for a review.

On MOTD last night they said they were told by the PGMOL that it wasn't a penalty because Cancelo had already cleared the ball (and the foul on Fraser had no impact on the clearance)!

The PGMOL really don't help themselves.  Just tell it as it is - ref and VAR called that one wrong, it happens.

Everyone would respect that far more than their how can we waffle our way out of this one & pretend it wasn't an error.  They make themselves look like idiots and the subsequent negativity towards the match officials increases because of it. Just be honest, accept they have made a mistake, they're mere human beings, it's going to happen sometimes, that's life & football.

It does indeed happen and frankly it is happening far too often.

The process whereby these referees take it turns to VAR for each other is clearly not working. Set up a dedicated team of VAR experts to do the job; we don't need a body of referees collectively marking their own homework.

One of the most intriguing aspects of this site is the wonder of who are referees, and who are fans of the game. I presume you are in the latter camp. Of course your opinion is welcomed, but not being a referee, you are not going to familiar with aspects of the game.

For starters, no referee wants to be a VAR. Secondly, it’s a highly skilled position and that’s why they use elite officials and don’t simply fulfil appointments with lower category referees.

To note, 4th officials are often from a lower category as it’s a useful stepping stone and allowing for access and familiarity, before (hopefully) those officials are ready for the higher level. Notably, VAR is not that.

VAR is not ‘marking homework’. They are an integral member of the team, and (as is quite apparent) as capable of mistakes as any of the on-field officials.

The current problem with VAR is a process issue, and not a training issue.

I think nemesis has been posting on here long enough and has a level of knowledge and insight that probably deserves a more respectful opening gambit.

It wasn't meant to sound disrespectful, but I appreciate that's how it may have come across, so I'm sorry for that.

When using the term "these referees", that reads like an out-group looking in.  Otherwise, my other points are factual and provide better context.

No referee wants to be a VAR, so it's a non-starter.  Also, being 'marked' (as it were) by people who don't understand the game is never going to work.

Firstly you apologise for your arrogant and disrespectful, not to mention simply inaccurate, comments then you go and do it again !!!

Having watched several thousand football matches live, played in several hundred and refereed a similar number followed by around 25 years as a key official for a league providing grassroots football for a sadly diminishing number of clubs, I do really feel I have a good grasp of most aspects of the game.

You are actually supporting my argument in a way. No (elite) referee wants to be a VAR ? Perhaps that's why they are doing it so badly. I generally perform better at something I want to do. They don't want to be VARs so take the burden of this onerous task away from them. Contrary to what you are saying there are hundreds, no thousands, of referees who would love to earn a good living as a VAR expert. This would include a huge number who are physically unable to meet the fitness requirements of even lower grade football.

To suggest that elite referees are the only people who "understand the game" is crass and ludicrous. Players, managers, coaches and yes even supporters as well as referees understand the game. Not all of course and some better than others but certainly a big enough pool to recruit a team of VAR experts from. You don't have to have spent years working up through the ranks of non-league football, toadying to those in power or working as a County FA crony to "understand the game".

I maintain that the current system whereby the VARs are too emotionally involved with their close colleagues to be objective, is not working very well. And just how great an understanding of the game do you have to have to see that Harry Kane's foul ticked all the boxes for a red card. One example of many.

Season's Greetings to all.

With respect, VAR is a member of refereeing team.  How on earth could it possibly work if VAR is not a qualified official?  Perhaps the 4th official or ARs should be appointed by experienced coaches or fans?  Just because VAR sits on a monitor doesn't mean that it can be done by someone whose experience of officiating football is... what? non-existent?

Only elite officials understand refereeing elite games.  That is what was intended by that reference.  That is neither outrageous, nor a particularly novel concept.  I am a senior-listed official who officiates with FIFA referees.  I am (I would believe) perfectly competent at my level, and will go further, but the idea that I could walk into being a competent VAR at a much higher level without any experience officiating at it is - to be frank - really rather ludicrous.

Beyond, I'm sure your point was somewhat throwaway, but if attending football matches was substitute for expertise, then any number of fans would be highly competent and knowledgeable with the LotG.  And why would this only apply to refereeing, perhaps they should also coach at that level to?  By virtue of watching games, playing football, and being involved in league committees?  I'm sure you can see the limit to that - a point you seem to have taken rather personally.

Besides, my point is that you shouldn't (and couldn't!) appoint a VAR from a lower division to input to a referee officiating at an elite level.  The expectations are totally, completely, and utterly different.  As I am sure you would agree.

If we're going to use personal anecdote to support an opinion, then here is mine.

As a senior-listed official who from one week may run the line to an Elite FIFA official, to the next week officiating with a referee who, though refereeing in the football pyramid, is far newer to the game, I can tell you confidently that appointing anyone but referees experienced in the same leagues they are conducting VAR for is a wildly bad idea.

Beyond all of this, whilst VAR is a challenging concept for all leagues, only England is making such a pig's ear of it.  It's an application issue, not requiring a wholesale change of the entire way football is officiated.

Hold on. If only the elite are able to carry out VAR duties and are making such a pig's ear out of it then perhaps they are not so elite after all. Why shouldn't a lower level or retired/injured referee (who after all are well versed in the laws of the game) and who would be trained how to use the system not be eligible for the job?
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Readingfan

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The debate about who should be VAR is an interesting one.

I have always felt that being a very good referee doesn't automatically mean you are a very good VAR and the other way round is also true.

I think there are potentially some practical barriers with who they could select though.

The first is a credibility one. Even when SG2 referees were being used as VAR in 2019/20, it was often commented by fans and the media as to why people who'd never refereed a PL match were advising PL referees if they'd got the decision correct, although admittedly this was at a time when the monitors weren't being used so the VAR effectively had the final say.

Perhaps this would be countered by being able to say you had a full-time panel of VARs which is what a lot of people have been calling for.

Another one is the amount of training that would be required. The current group have probably had at least 4 years of training in the main. I think the standard has generally improved with experience so if you were starting with a completely new group it would presumably take at least a season or two for them to build up that same level of experience - of course some of the improvement has been due to wider law changes and, as with any job, some people will be excellent after a very short time whereas some people will be poor after a very long time.

I understand the argument that people from outside SG1 might have a more detached view but I wonder how long that would realistically be sustained. It might be true at the very start but after a month or two they'd presumably be part of the group and have got to know some referees so I guess they'd quickly become an insider rather than outsider. In any case, most referee autobiographies suggest a lot of PL refs don't get on that well!

And then you have the question of what the VARs are actually being asked to do - if the directives from their bosses are flawed or inconsistent then the performance level is likely to be the same, regardless of who's doing it.

I think replacing a few people at top of PGMO would be simpler and more effective than replacing entire group of current VARs. But equally, I think there would be some merit in training a wider group of VARs and seeing if any of them especially excel at it. 
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