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Author Topic: Merseyside Derby  (Read 3704 times)

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ajb95

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #45 on: Sat 17 Oct 2020 23:52 »
The Athletic were reporting that David Coote had looked at the Pickford challenge but not deemed it SFP, whilst various other media outlets have been told he didn't look at it at all...

The PGMO's communication as good as ever I see!

(I'm not such which of the above - looking and not thinking red, or not looking at all - is worse.)
It was reported by Dale, during the game, that Coote was too focussed on the offside and didn't look at the challenge.

He was very focused at the end when Hendersonís goal was ruled out. Weíve seen some shocking offsides given over the last 12 months but that tops the lot!!

thesensibleone

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #46 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 00:22 »
Having watched a still image of the mane offside it reminds me of the Sheffield United Toe that was offside last season. But this was tighter the top of the arm and the line he is ahead of the middle defenders backside and there is a very tiny gap all the way through to the Simon Bennett so by very small margins and being picky he is offside by law and hasn't given leeway to the attackers as instructed after last seasons Toe incident. But offside is offside right? 

LateTackle

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #47 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 02:26 »
So.....just for clarity then.  The VAR official detected an offside so a red-card standard challenge went unpunished.  Does that mean that had the player's leg been broken in the challenge, but then it was deemed not a foul because he was offside, that his leg is no longer broken? ???

The game at top level gets more ludicrous by the day. >:(
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flipmode

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #48 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 05:54 »
It's really interesting for me that when we're watching these games, we scarcely talk about the poor performance of the on field referees anymore.
I thought Michael handled the game really well, and contributed massively to the ebb and flow of the game. His positioning for the Richarlison sending off was superb, and he diffused the situation immediately by taking out the RC.

It's a shame that he and his on field team have been let down by the VAR. I can see why the incident may have been missed by the VAR as the offside was so marginal, but if that is indeed what has happened here (and I wouldn't trust Dale Johnson in a month of Sundays) then it is unforgivable.
David Silva olť.
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carrowman

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #49 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 07:45 »
Although Coote is quite rightly getting the blame, could someone tell me what Lee Betts as the Additional Video Assistant Referee is doing? Is he responsible for drawing the lines or just making the tea!
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Scally Bob

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #50 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 09:18 »
Iíve just rewatched MOTD and the Assistant clearly raises his flag when Pickford assaults Van Dijk. I wonder if he told the Referee via the comms that heíd seen the violent conduct? It was also clear that the ball was dead for a foul seconds earlier when Richarlison was rightly sent off.

Liverpoolís appeal or request for clarification will come to nothing because a reply will have to admit that VAR and those operating it are not fit for purpose and nobody will own up to that. Even if they did Liverpool wonít get the two points they were denied and Van Dijk will still be injured. I donít see any reason the Premier League canít look at Pickfordís antics if it wasnít dealt with at the time by the match officials. That VAR didnít review it defies belief.

Itís absolutely ruining football. All the promises that there wouldnít be any further debate about refereeing decisions when VAR came in have amounted to nothing.
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Ref Fan

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #51 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 10:03 »
I wondered what the AR saw or communicated, but wasn't the raised flag for the offside?  I thought VAR confirmed offside rather than changed an onfield decision, but could be mistaken.

In recent weeks both Sky and BT have acknowledged that they can hear what the VAR says but not the input from the referee.  If Coote was checking for a potential RC, would he not have communicated that to Oliver and BT be aware of it.  Personally, I didn't hear any comments on tv that VAR was checking for a RC.

Frankly, I don't know how much criticism should be apportioned to Oliver as well as Coote as we don't know what view or angle he had, or what communication there was with the AR.  If the Pickford challenge and injury to Van Dijk was playing on Oliver's mind at all, it didn't seem to show in his match control subsequently. I was pleased to see flipmode's post #48 earlier (apologies for not quoting) in that regard.
« Last Edit: Sun 18 Oct 2020 10:05 by Ref Fan »
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Leggy

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #52 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 10:35 »
Player is marginally offside, however, the flag does not go up as per instructions these days, and play goes on and the keeper makes a genuine attempt to play the ball which results in the offside player being injured and having to leave the field.
VAR looks at the situation to see if a penalty should be awarded but the eveidence shows that the player was offside, therefore, that is the first offence and the offside is given.

Are we then going to dismiss a keeper for a genuine attempt to play the ball, bearing in mind that it could well have been the keeper who was injured and had to leave the field.  Those running the game have manufactured these situations  and the use of VAR is compounding the issue.

In the same incident in any game in England outside the Premier League, the offside would have been flagged but because of the speed of the game the keeper would still have challenged and it would be possible  that players are injured, however, the free  kick would have been given for offside and everyone gets on with the game.
The monster has been created in an effort to make the game 100% perfect.

I am not sure that it is a "genuine attempt to play the ball" - but that loses any relevance when considering Serious Foul Play:

Did the challenge endanger the safety of an opponent?  100% yes. 

Should Pickford have been sanctioned as such?  100% yes.

Should Oliver have seen it?  Almost certainly - he had a decent viewing eye-line.

Should Coote - which access to technology and as much time as he needs identified it?  100% yes.

I am not sure if the "collision" would not have happened had the flag been raised instantly and Oliver's whistle stopped play - there was very little time.  I am sure, however, that this nonsense of telling AR's to hold their flag and see what happens next is going to end with a serious injury one day soon.
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Leggy

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #53 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 10:39 »
Liverpool have asked for an explanation on the VAR decisions for today, specifically looking at 3 areas.

  • Why no review and subsequent action on Pickford chall?
  • Which part of Mane's body deemed offside?
  • At what moment did VAR decide to freeze-frame?

Source - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/12106875/liverpool-ask-premier-league-to-investigate-var-decisions-during-draw-at-everton

1st part is easy - VAR protocol does not factor it in.  To determine if it was a penalty/red the first thing to establish was whether he was offside or not. As he was then the check effectively ends as there can be no penalty. Hopefully if nothing else it will lead to another review of the VAR protocol as it currently stands and it will be extended to allow for review to determine if there is a red card offence that follows despite the offside ruling out a penalty. There has to be more common sense allowed to be used, imo. For me this is exactly what VAR should be looking at instead of seeing if a toenail or eyelash or something equally ridiculous is 0.1mm offside!

Sorry to disagree, but VAR is also available to check for red card offences.  The ball does not have to be in play for a red card offence to be (allegedly) committed and require the attention of the VAR.  His inattention was a grave error.
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Ref Fan

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #54 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 11:57 »
Quoting Leggy: "Should Oliver have seen it?  Almost certainly - he had a decent viewing eye-line."

That was my initial impression.  Having watched it again, doubts crept in as it was hard to tell the position of Everton's No. 12 when Pickford went in feet first and the collision occurred.  It all happened in a split second and Oliver seemed to move to his right as if perhaps to get a better view.  Don't want to be seen to be making excuses though, and it is disappointing that someone who I consider to be our best referee at present either missed it or misjudged the severity of what happened.

To my mind though, it does raise an important point.  From comments on here a while back, I understand the referee can't prompt the VAR about an incident and the initiative lies with the VAR to review.  It's conceivable there will be occasions where a referee instinctively feels he's missed something and his AR can't help him.
This incident could be one such.  Wouldn't it make sense if the referee could inform VAR of his doubts?  Normally of course VAR would automatically review, but  Coote's failure to do so, apparently as all the focus was on the offside or penalty, might have been avoided had Oliver asked, or been allowed to ask, VAR to be sure to look at the Pickford challenge.

   
 

guest42

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #55 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 11:59 »
Although Coote is quite rightly getting the blame, could someone tell me what Lee Betts as the Additional Video Assistant Referee is doing? Is he responsible for drawing the lines or just making the tea!

He was trying to find enough change for the Vending Machine.

They filled it up with a fresh box of Wispa Golds on Friday...
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Readingfan

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #56 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 12:19 »
Quoting Leggy: "Should Oliver have seen it?  Almost certainly - he had a decent viewing eye-line."

That was my initial impression.  Having watched it again, doubts crept in as it was hard to tell the position of Everton's No. 12 when Pickford went in feet first and the collision occurred.  It all happened in a split second and Oliver seemed to move to his right as if perhaps to get a better view.  Don't want to be seen to be making excuses though, and it is disappointing that someone who I consider to be our best referee at present either missed it or misjudged the severity of what happened.

To my mind though, it does raise an important point.  From comments on here a while back, I understand the referee can't prompt the VAR about an incident and the initiative lies with the VAR to review.  It's conceivable there will be occasions where a referee instinctively feels he's missed something and his AR can't help him.
This incident could be one such.  Wouldn't it make sense if the referee could inform VAR of his doubts?  Normally of course VAR would automatically review, but  Coote's failure to do so, apparently as all the focus was on the offside or penalty, might have been avoided had Oliver asked, or been allowed to ask, VAR to be sure to look at the Pickford challenge.

   
 

The referee always has to make a decision but they can have general conversations. There has been footage released of audio conversations in MLS/A League before and an official will frequently say something like 'I don't think X was interfering but can we double check it please? On-field decision is goal but just make sure'.


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sastley

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #57 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 12:43 »
Read the comments here with interest. Watched the game on TV last night. The assistants flag was not raised until after the Pickford foul. He had a very clear view of the incident. Clear red card. The  "offside" call for the disallowed Liverpool goal was not proved by the camera and was at best level. The discussion here and on TV channels shows to me that the officials have brought the game into disrepute by their failures. Be interested to see the next round of appointments. I know we all make mistakes, BUT!!!!!
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Readingfan

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #58 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 13:10 »
Read the comments here with interest. Watched the game on TV last night. The assistants flag was not raised until after the Pickford foul. He had a very clear view of the incident. Clear red card. The  "offside" call for the disallowed Liverpool goal was not proved by the camera and was at best level. The discussion here and on TV channels shows to me that the officials have brought the game into disrepute by their failures. Be interested to see the next round of appointments. I know we all make mistakes, BUT!!!!!

The on-field decision was offside. The assistant would have delayed the flag until the end of the move (although it happened so quickly, I doubt play would have been stopped before even in a non-VAR match.)

Mane's upper arm was judged to be offside I believe - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkmG5k3XIAcG9AB?format=jpg&name=small

I'm never too fussed about an individual offside decision (unless there's clear evidence it's wrong or they've misinterpreted something, which I've yet to see.) I don't believe the technology to be 100% accurate but it's the most accurate they've currently got, is used across Europe and all 20 PL clubs signed up to it so I don't think any can complain too much if a one-off decision happens to go against them. I think the process could be changed/improved - although most suggestions I've seen for that so far also have their flaws!


REDSTRIPE

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Re: Merseyside Derby
« Reply #59 on: Sun 18 Oct 2020 13:31 »
Read the comments here with interest. Watched the game on TV last night. The assistants flag was not raised until after the Pickford foul. He had a very clear view of the incident. Clear red card. The  "offside" call for the disallowed Liverpool goal was not proved by the camera and was at best level. The discussion here and on TV channels shows to me that the officials have brought the game into disrepute by their failures. Be interested to see the next round of appointments. I know we all make mistakes, BUT!!!!!
I agree....shocking all round..........and if that was offside then I am the Queen of Sheba!