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Author Topic: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd  (Read 1365 times)

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dave26

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Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« on: Sun 19 Sep 2021 16:11 »
No complaints from me about Atkinson or his AR’s not impressed with Darren England on VAR didn’t so much as suggest an OFR for a stonewall penalty after a clear foul on Ronaldo just before the West Ham penalty usual laid back performance by Atkinson , let the game flow and was always up with play got everything spot on once Darren England recommended the OFR for the West Ham Penalty it was inevitable so no blame attached to Atkinson

I think we are slowly starting to see VAR going back to its old ways after what I’ve seen in the last week or so

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DublinRef

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #1 on: Sun 19 Sep 2021 16:32 »
Thought Man United and West Ham should have had penalties from VAR (2 for West Ham). The third of Ronaldo’s three claims was a penalty IMO. Yes he was definitely going down before contact but the tackle was clearly and illegal one for me and should have been a foul.

One could argue he should have been off for simulation after his first two claims. The first I thought was clear simulation. The second there is a slight tug but he didn’t need to go down, not enough for a penalty or simulation probably.

West Ham IMO should have had a clear penalty when instead a free kick to Utd was awarded. Can’t understand how VAR didn’t intervene.

Penalty correctly awarded for handball late on.


Ref Fan

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #2 on: Sun 19 Sep 2021 17:38 »
I've given up trying to understand what is or isn't a clear and obvious error.
Agree that I expected West Ham to get an earlier penalty when a free kick was awarded to United instead.
Of the 3 Ronaldo claims, the first was definitely not in my view.  The second was marginal and if Atko had given it, I'm not sure VAR would have intervened.  Unless my eyes deceived me, the third was nailed on.  I just cannot fathom why VAR didn't think it was a C & O error.

Yes, Atkinson was low key but arguably he missed 3 penalties - 2 that weren't given and a the third only after being referred to the monitor. I really don't think he was at his best, and coming after what many considered were missed sanctions last week I wouldn't regard it as a good 7 days for him.
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ajb95

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #3 on: Sun 19 Sep 2021 18:13 »
Unlike Tierney in the late KO who has been simply outstanding!

ajb95

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #4 on: Sun 19 Sep 2021 18:17 »
Thought Man United and West Ham should have had penalties from VAR (2 for West Ham). The third of Ronaldo’s three claims was a penalty IMO. Yes he was definitely going down before contact but the tackle was clearly and illegal one for me and should have been a foul.

One could argue he should have been off for simulation after his first two claims. The first I thought was clear simulation. The second there is a slight tug but he didn’t need to go down, not enough for a penalty or simulation probably.

West Ham IMO should have had a clear penalty when instead a free kick to Utd was awarded. Can’t understand how VAR didn’t intervene.

Penalty correctly awarded for handball late on.

I thought the earlier was the correct decision - I think the United 26 is fouled first but very close. The first penalty appeal is not a foul as he initiates the contact, however might have been awarded in previous seasons. 2nd one there is a clear tug of the shirt, not enough to go down but we know that players must go down to get a penalty these days. But I cannot understand how the 3rd one isnt given. I get why Atkinson might have not have been certain but England has many looks at it. SHould have been an OFR.

West Ham one is an easy one to give in the current interpretation, although slightly harsh as Shaw is barely a yard away but does have his hand stretched out. Similar to the Palace one last week
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Ref Fan

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #5 on: Sun 19 Sep 2021 23:21 »
Having seen the incidents again, I think I was being kind to Martin Atkinson and that he missed 4 penalties.  For me, 2 of the 3 Ronaldo appeals should have been penalties, plus the Bissaka foul that should have been a penalty to West Ham and not a free kick to United, and then the Shaw handball when VAR seemed to have woken up at last and advised Atkinson to go to the monitor.

Alan Shearer just summed it up - a poor day for the referee and VAR.

GingerReferee

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #6 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 00:08 »
Watched motd 2 highlights
Can't see what the hell Atkinson saw to not give Soucek a penalty, clear penalty.

All of Ronaldos penalty calls, correctly given.
1st one runs into player. Then the other 2 dives, 2nd one don't think he can be booked. 3rd, easily should be booked. I don't see how, I think Richard West, he doesn't see it however things Happen and Var does well to give penalty.
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Ref Fan

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #7 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 08:31 »
I messed up again.  It was meant to be a polite disagree GingerReferee, not dislike. Apologies.  But how you see the 3rd Ronaldo appeal as a dive defeats me.  Referees (and VAR) still have to treat each case on its merits whatever a player's alleged reputation.

Mikael W

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #8 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 09:34 »
I didn't watch the game yesterday, but I was curious about the big incidents having read some reports etc, so from a live commentary I grabbed the minutes and clips are below.

69' -



77' -



85' -



+91' -



+92' -




---

My views:

69' - what an EXCELLENT decision by Martin Atkinson, despite the impression that the attacker was simply tackled down in the penalty area, actually he deliberately 'screened' the defender in order to allow the ball to reach his teammate; the Englishman used all his experience there, well done.

77' - a less well-executed Ortega and Stam :)); caution for simulation would be a hard sell, but the most correct decision IMO.

85' - clear holding of the attacker's arm, so the base decision should be penalty; perception of an exaggerated fall, attacker not reaching the ball anyway, and the theatre of decisions involving CR7 - these were surely the reasons that the (V)MOs cleared this situation.

+91' - attacker can see the defender is about to slide in so he toes the ball forward, away from his possession, in order that he can get taken out and win a penalty, so Atkinson's instinct was right; however, I guess that most people simply expect a penalty here?

+92' - crystal clear penalty; assistant Richard West should have seen it live, but faced the same issues as Carlos Pastrana in WC 2010's PARESP QF: 1) he was probably too close; 2) he wasn't cognitively ready/expecting this scene; 3) he lacked the courage to take a huge call. Of course, correct intervention from Darren England, and the right outcome reached.

---

OVERALL: 85' is the contentious scene for me. Otherwise, I think the officials sextet responded to these five scenes in a definitely more-positive-than-not way. So I don't see this disaster which people are talking about. I can't comment about the rest of the game, though (it looked like a thriller!).
« Last Edit: Mon 20 Sep 2021 09:37 by Mikael W »
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GingerReferee

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #9 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 09:50 »
I messed up again.  It was meant to be a polite disagree GingerReferee, not dislike. Apologies.  But how you see the 3rd Ronaldo appeal as a dive defeats me.  Referees (and VAR) still have to treat each case on its merits whatever a player's alleged reputation.

No problem. For me he's going down expecting the contact that never came

ajb95

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #10 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 10:15 »
I messed up again.  It was meant to be a polite disagree GingerReferee, not dislike. Apologies.  But how you see the 3rd Ronaldo appeal as a dive defeats me.  Referees (and VAR) still have to treat each case on its merits whatever a player's alleged reputation.

No problem. For me he's going down expecting the contact that never came

Just because he’s already going down doesn’t mean it isn’t a penalty?

ARF

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #11 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 10:24 »
69' - clear penalty IMO. Defender dives in and wipes out the attacker.

77' - no penalty the right call there I think. Attacker sees the leg come out and jumps/falls into it.

85' - as far as I can see, the very slight holding by the defender does not impede the attacker's movement at all - he merely feels the minor contact on his arm and throws himself to the floor.

90+1' - it is a 100% dive by the attacker - very definitely goes down before any contact between him and the defender. Ironically, had he not dived the defender would have probably fouled him!

90+2' - very clear handball, surprised it wasn't given in real time, but at least VAR has correctly intervened.
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GingerReferee

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #12 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 10:59 »
I messed up again.  It was meant to be a polite disagree GingerReferee, not dislike. Apologies.  But how you see the 3rd Ronaldo appeal as a dive defeats me.  Referees (and VAR) still have to treat each case on its merits whatever a player's alleged reputation.

No problem. For me he's going down expecting the contact that never came

Just because he’s already going down doesn’t mean it isn’t a penalty?

In this case imo it does

ARF

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #13 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 11:20 »
I messed up again.  It was meant to be a polite disagree GingerReferee, not dislike. Apologies.  But how you see the 3rd Ronaldo appeal as a dive defeats me.  Referees (and VAR) still have to treat each case on its merits whatever a player's alleged reputation.

No problem. For me he's going down expecting the contact that never came

Just because he’s already going down doesn’t mean it isn’t a penalty?
While it doesn't necessarily mean it can't be a penalty (I gave a foul on Saturday where the attacker tripped over the ball, yet as he was falling the defender kicked him in the ribs!), in this case I think it's a very clear act of simulation by Ronaldo. This isn't a situation where the attacker is having to take evasive action to avoid getting hurt - he's simply pretended to have been tripped to try and win a penalty.
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Ref Fan

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Re: Martin Atkinson : West Ham vs Man Utd
« Reply #14 on: Mon 20 Sep 2021 12:26 »
Just watched an extended Ref Watch on the Football Show with Dermot Gallagher because of the number of debatable incidents over the weekend.

As for this game, there was unanimous agreement by Dermot and the 2 pundits that West Ham should have had a penalty for the challenge by Bissaka.

Of the 3 Ronaldo claims, all agreed the tug on the arm incident wasn't enough for a penalty.
On the other 2, Dermot claimed 1 would split opinion but both pundits thought penalty.
On the third, unanimous agreement that United should have had a penalty.

I really am bemused why some are saying Atkinson got all 3 Ronaldo claims correct and that VAR was right not too intervene.  Still, it's all down to opinions I suppose.  Mine happened to be in agreement with those expressed on Ref Watch in this instance - which is not always the case!
« Last Edit: Mon 20 Sep 2021 12:37 by Ref Fan »
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