+-

+-User
Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 

Login with your social network

Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock
Members
Total Members: 840
Latest: Azza
New This Month: 2
New This Week: 2
New Today: 2
Stats
Total Posts: 66534
Total Topics: 4984
Most Online Today: 85
Most Online Ever: 17046
(Mon 29 Mar 2021 19:08)
Users Online
Members: 14
Guests: 64
Total: 78
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace  (Read 1480 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Leggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: East Grinstead
    • View Profile
  • Referee Level: Long Retired Level 3
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #30 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 11:26 »
Quote from: Ashington46 on Mon 21 Sep 2020 09:30
Quote from: Readingfan on Sun 20 Sep 2020 22:53
At least it has made handball more consistent. There used to be lots of discussion about whether an incident such as Trent Alexander-Arnold's handling last season agI do find it easier to judge a handball offence now, even if I don't personally agree.

It's basically gone in the PL from a player getting a lot of the benefit of the doubt if the ball hit their hand to them being given very little. A lot was required for handball in England previously, but now if the ball hits your hand it's likely to be penalised if VAR is in use unless your hand is very close to your body.

Perhaps it makes it more consistent if the offence happens in the penalty area, however, there were several instances of handball, similar to those leading to penalties in the games discussed, which were committed in general play and these were not penalised. 

The question which then arises is are we playing to different laws in the penalty area to those used on the rest of the field because some are covered by VAR but others are not?


We are, because VAR has the ability to forensically review (from several angles) and spot contact that cannot be conclusively determined using the naked eye from a set position (be that a good or not-so-good one).  And VAR is only used to determine potential penalty offences.  As a result we get more handball "offences" in the penalty area than pretty much anywhere else of the Field of Play.
Logged

Ashington46

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 791
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ashington, Northumberland
    • View Profile
  • Referee Level: Retired for years!
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #31 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 12:52 »
Quote from: Leggy on Mon 21 Sep 2020 11:26
Quote from: Ashington46 on Mon 21 Sep 2020 09:30
Quote from: Readingfan on Sun 20 Sep 2020 22:53
At least it has made handball more consistent. There used to be lots of discussion about whether an incident such as Trent Alexander-Arnold's handling last season agI do find it easier to judge a handball offence now, even if I don't personally agree.

It's basically gone in the PL from a player getting a lot of the benefit of the doubt if the ball hit their hand to them being given very little. A lot was required for handball in England previously, but now if the ball hits your hand it's likely to be penalised if VAR is in use unless your hand is very close to your body.



Perhaps it makes it more consistent if the offence happens in the penalty area, however, there were several instances of handball, similar to those leading to penalties in the games discussed, which were committed in general play and these were not penalised. 

The question which then arises is are we playing to different laws in the penalty area to those used on the rest of the field because some are covered by VAR but others are not?


We are, because VAR has the ability to forensically review (from several angles) and spot contact that cannot be conclusively determined using the naked eye from a set position (be that a good or not-so-good one).  And VAR is only used to determine potential penalty offences.  As a result we get more handball "offences" in the penalty area than pretty much anywhere else of the Field of Play.


On the basis of that, my next question, as someone who has played the game and officiated at semi-professional level since 1965 and in more recent years has done quite a lot of mentoring for young officials, is do you instruct young referees that handball is to be viewed differently in the penalty area to anywhere else on the field.
That is what the use of VAR seems to be saying, therefore, IFAB need to introduce that interpretation into their instructions so  that we are all clear that handball may not be handball if it occurs outside of the penalty area.
« Last Edit: Mon 21 Sep 2020 12:54 by Ashington46 »
Logged
Referee's decision used to be final!

Microscopist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 593
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #32 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 13:26 »
IFAB diagram


Two points:
1) Not given handball in Arsenal v West Ham game seemed to me to hit a significant element in the red zone.  Difficult for the referee but less so for VAR. (Shirt sleeves generally are a bit longer than the IFAB green zone)
2) Offside presumably now upper arm at  shoulder rather than  "armpit" - hence Arsenal first goal which looked to me to be just offside on "armpit" ruling looked more offside on "shoulder" ruling.
Logged
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Ref Watcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #33 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 13:46 »
Quote from: robbie_scouse on Sat 19 Sep 2020 21:02
They’d be as well starting two yards behind the line if this is the precedent!!
That wouldn't do them any good either.  They have to be on or above the goal line; behind is not acceptable.  In fact I had to warn a goalkeeper of that very fact when he was about to face a penalty in my game this weekend.
Logged
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

bmb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,607
  • Gender: Female
  • Causing mischief & mayhem!!
  • Location: Somewhere between Poole & Budapest!
    • View Profile
    • Hungarian Football
  • Referee Level: Observer/Mentor.
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #34 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 13:58 »
Quote from: rustyref on Sun 20 Sep 2020 22:41
Quote from: ajb95 on Sun 20 Sep 2020 21:48
Quote from: rustyref on Sun 20 Sep 2020 18:55
His arm was out from the body.  The ball hit it, that will always be given as a penalty under the new law.

Don't agree with it personally, but the officials can only follow the current law and we are now seeing handball penalties given that wouldn't have been given last season.  Everyone just needs to get used to it as it won't be changing.

Who is making these laws?? I know it’s IFAB on advice from FIFA but is it lead by ex referees etc.??
Surely someone with a brain cell has got to be looking at this and can’t be happy.
I know most football fans aren’t and football is slowly losing a lot of interest!

Something I've said before, laws are made by people that haven't played football to any kind of level.  They probably think that you can run with your arms pinned by your side.

But once the laws are made all referees can do is apply them.

IFAB is made up of David Elleray, Ray Ellingham, Neale Barry, Jonathan Fort, Massimo Busacca, Collina, Patrick Nelson, Mark Bullingham, Dirk Schlemmer, William Campbell, Lukas Brud and Arsene Wenger to name but a few.
Logged
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!!
Informative Informative x 2 View List

JCFC

  • RTR Veterans
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1,742
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Brighouse
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #35 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 15:05 »
If these are your new bedroom wall pin-up boys, you would have been better sticking to David Allison.
Logged
Funny Funny x 3 View List

PhiltheRef

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #36 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 18:40 »
On Sunday I was asked by a Goalkeeper what I needed from her positionally when facing a penalty.
She complied with Law AND saved it
Logged
Like Like x 1 View List

robbie_scouse

  • RTR Veterans
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #37 on: Mon 21 Sep 2020 23:28 »
Quote from: Microscopist on Mon 21 Sep 2020 13:26
IFAB diagram


Two points:
1) Not given handball in Arsenal v West Ham game seemed to me to hit a significant element in the red zone.  Difficult for the referee but less so for VAR. (Shirt sleeves generally are a bit longer than the IFAB green zone)
2) Offside presumably now upper arm at  shoulder rather than  "armpit" - hence Arsenal first goal which looked to me to be just offside on "armpit" ruling looked more offside on "shoulder" ruling.

Just use your right arm and you’ll be fine then 🤣
Logged
Like Like x 1 Funny Funny x 5 View List

lincs22

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #38 on: Tue 22 Sep 2020 08:16 »
Quote from: dave26 on Sat 19 Sep 2020 19:29
Average performance by Atkinson imo , no complaints about the result palace deserved it but the biggest decision was the poorest I’ve seen in many a year step forward VAR Jon Moss to have that penalty retaken for De Gea being the slightest margin off his line is really poor and embarrassing

And what allowance is made in cricket for a front foot no-ball? A fraction of an inch over and its a no-ball!
Same with GLT, a fraction of a inch over - its a goal.

While we may not like the new interpretation and the use of VAR on this matter, it is correct in Law and that what IFAB wants!
Logged
Agree Agree x 1 View List

ajb95

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,253
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #39 on: Tue 22 Sep 2020 08:33 »
Yep IFAB and FIFA are ruining football at all levels!
Logged
Funny Funny x 1 View List

Readingfan

  • RTR Veterans
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2,269
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #40 on: Tue 22 Sep 2020 12:15 »
Quote from: PhiltheRef on Mon 21 Sep 2020 18:40
On Sunday I was asked by a Goalkeeper what I needed from her positionally when facing a penalty.
She complied with Law AND saved it

We also saw two examples in the PL on Sun/Mon of goalkeepers able to stay on the line and save a penalty.

Logged
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Readingfan

  • RTR Veterans
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2,269
    • View Profile
Re: Martin Atkinson Man Utd vs Crystal Palace
« Reply #41 on: Tue 22 Sep 2020 14:12 »
Always interesting to read a Dale Johnson twitter thread! - https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1308376384528670721

57 penalties given for handball in Serie A last season so PL could be on for something similar (only 20 awarded in PL last season) - but number has reduced in Germany as defenders adapt.


Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
« previous next »