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Author Topic: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup  (Read 1448 times)

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Matt

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #15 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 09:46 »
Offside.

Harry Kane is leaning forward therefore his head is offside. At the time they were fascinated on position of feet which was wrong.
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ajb95

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #16 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 13:14 »
I’ve see about 4 or 5 angles of this now. I think personally it is offside and the linesman made a very brave but correct decision despite being a yard ahead of play or so. With offsides why is VAR not looking at the side on view or the view the linesman has? That initial replay is wrong.
What’s the point of having the technology if it’s not going to be used properly??

Ref Fan

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #17 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 13:33 »
Not having seen the game or the highlights, can I ask a couple of questions:

What did the AR do having put his flag up - did he stand with the flag raised or run along the line to follow play?

Why did Michael Oliver not blow for the offside before the penalty incident arose?

I suspect a factor here is we don't know what was said over the comms between Oliver and the AR at the time.

Maybe there was an acknowledgement that it was marginal and to wait to see how play developed, aware that it would go to VAR if necessary.




bmb

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #18 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 13:40 »
The UEFA course is not for all FIFA refs (from the list on Law5blog only Kassai is on there). It is for those referees who have been preselected to be involved in the knock out games, either as referees or VAR. I think Oliver, Taylor and Pawson will get games in the middle, as well as VAR, with Atwell and Tierney used as VAR.
Kavanagh is on the new refs course at same time

Thanks RCG - so yay we will have refs in Hungary that weekend!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #19 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 13:42 »
I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and attacker?
If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view as the AR, have they guessed?

From twitter: https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185

Looks offside to me.  AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit, leaving him slightly ahead of them.
Clear offside so what picture were var using?  So the only thing var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me is people think this was a good example of var where infact it was a shambles .
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Failed Ref

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #20 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 14:28 »
The commentator on Sky said that Michael Oliver said that the referee should put his flag up for offside and I guess that is what AR did. He was convinced Vardy was offside. My problem with this is that the use of VAR to determine offside should not then be used as the defence could claim (and did) that they were influenced by the flag. If the view we had on Sky was what TMO had, then I guess looking at feet it was an onside call and on my large tv screen I concurred. But the flag went up!
Offsides can only be accurately determined if the camera angle is "good" i.e. ideally in line and b, most importantly, play is allowed to continue as normal without intervention from the officials. I doubt that looking at a monitor at any picture provided by VAR would help if the AR puts his flag up! Did AR mean to or was it an automatic response to years of trying to get it right.

nemesis

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #21 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 14:32 »
I think that was pretty quick, 90 seconds considering they were looking at both offside and a penalty.  That was a great example of VAR for me.

Over-ruling a possibly/probably perfectly correct offside call is hardly a great example of use of VAR.

It also beggars belief that this offside should be over-ruled when that ludicrous penalty at Fulham wasn't. Presumably because it only an Assistant making the call and not a much vaunted "elite" referee.

The system is failing not because of what it is, not because of the technology, but because of the people using it !
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nemesis

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #22 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 14:33 »
The commentator on Sky said that Michael Oliver said that the referee should put his flag up for offside and I guess that is what AR did. He was convinced Vardy was offside. My problem with this is that the use of VAR to determine offside should not then be used as the defence could claim (and did) that they were influenced by the flag. If the view we had on Sky was what TMO had, then I guess looking at feet it was an onside call and on my large tv screen I concurred. But the flag went up!
Offsides can only be accurately determined if the camera angle is "good" i.e. ideally in line and b, most importantly, play is allowed to continue as normal without intervention from the officials. I doubt that looking at a monitor at any picture provided by VAR would help if the AR puts his flag up! Did AR mean to or was it an automatic response to years of trying to get it right.

Have I missed something in the transfer window ?
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Microscopist

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #23 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 16:06 »
"The system is failing not because of what it is, not because of the technology, but because of the people using it !"


I once endeared myself to my bosses by cutting out a headline from a magazine and posting it above my desk, it read -
 "The technology is all there, but is the management?"

In this case my immediate thought was that the upper part of Kane's body was offside.  But being conscious that all measurements have a degree of error I wondered whether this could be within that margin and hence the benefit went to the attacker.  Even if that were the case I would have preferred the cricketing approach of "referee's (or assistant's) call".
However, the more I look at the views I can't help thinking that this appeared to be sufficiently offside that VAR should have been able to identify it, even though the camera was not ideally positioned.  It seems odd to me that VAR should not be able to produce two lines; one for the most advanced legitimate part of an attacker, and one for the rearmost point of the last defender - at whatever height they happen to be, and then correct for any parallax errors.
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Readingfan

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #24 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 18:52 »
I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and attacker?
If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view as the AR, have they guessed?

From twitter: https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185

Looks offside to me.  AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit, leaving him slightly ahead of them.
Clear offside so what picture were var using?  So the only thing var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me is people think this was a good example of var where infact it was a shambles .

As far as I can tell, you can't see when the ball is played in that photo so it's not really of any use.

To answer the questions about the process, I think the assistant put the flag up quite late in the process. I would certainly say that Oliver was correct to allow play to continue considering the promising attack and the excuse of the defenders of 'we stopped because we saw the flag' holds no credibility in a world with VAR (or indeed without VAR, considering examples such as the Brighton V Everton game where the referee overruled the assistant.)

I think the assistant was right to flag eventually if he thought it was offside because I think it's important that the officials on the field still take responsibility for making decisions, as far as is possible.

bruntyboy

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #25 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 19:57 »
I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and attacker?
If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view as the AR, have they guessed?

From twitter: https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185

Looks offside to me.  AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit, leaving him slightly ahead of them.
Clear offside so what picture were var using?  So the only thing var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me is people think this was a good example of var where infact it was a shambles .

As far as I can tell, you can't see when the ball is played in that photo so it's not really of any use.

To answer the questions about the process, I think the assistant put the flag up quite late in the process. I would certainly say that Oliver was correct to allow play to continue considering the promising attack and the excuse of the defenders of 'we stopped because we saw the flag' holds no credibility in a world with VAR (or indeed without VAR, considering examples such as the Brighton V Everton game where the referee overruled the assistant.)

I think the assistant was right to flag eventually if he thought it was offside because I think it's important that the officials on the field still take responsibility for making decisions, as far as is possible.

In the Brighton v Everton game the flag went up simultaneously with the Brighton player playing the ball. The flag did not influence the defenders and goalkeeper as the player was by himself in the 6 yard box.

TheThingFromLewes

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rustyref

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #27 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 21:45 »
What are we going to trust, a scientifically calibrated system or someone with a camera in the crowd.  I've seen a different picture to the Twitter one that appears to show Kane offside, but on it the ball has clearly already left the passer's foot, and in that split second period with defender moving out and attacker moving forwards the picture can change dramatically.

Readingfan

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #28 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 22:06 »
I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and attacker?
If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view as the AR, have they guessed?

From twitter: https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185

Looks offside to me.  AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit, leaving him slightly ahead of them.
Clear offside so what picture were var using?  So the only thing var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me is people think this was a good example of var where infact it was a shambles .

As far as I can tell, you can't see when the ball is played in that photo so it's not really of any use.

To answer the questions about the process, I think the assistant put the flag up quite late in the process. I would certainly say that Oliver was correct to allow play to continue considering the promising attack and the excuse of the defenders of 'we stopped because we saw the flag' holds no credibility in a world with VAR (or indeed without VAR, considering examples such as the Brighton V Everton game where the referee overruled the assistant.)

I think the assistant was right to flag eventually if he thought it was offside because I think it's important that the officials on the field still take responsibility for making decisions, as far as is possible.

In the Brighton v Everton game the flag went up simultaneously with the Brighton player playing the ball. The flag did not influence the defenders and goalkeeper as the player was by himself in the 6 yard box.

Well, I would suggest that Kane was sufficiently in front of the Chelsea defenders that they were unlikely to get back anyway and it didn't seem that the goalkeeper saw the flag anyway so not sure there was really any genuine influence.

The general point of course is that sometimes the assistant will raise a flag and the referee will choose to overrule it for whatever reason, with Brighton V Everton being the most recent example.

With VAR, players will need to be increasingly alert to this possibility and it has no credibility as a reason for players switching off.

Readingfan

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Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
« Reply #29 on: Wed 09 Jan 2019 22:09 »
I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and attacker?
If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view as the AR, have they guessed?

From twitter: https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185

Looks offside to me.  AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit, leaving him slightly ahead of them.
Clear offside so what picture were var using?  So the only thing var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me is people think this was a good example of var where infact it was a shambles .

Even under the World Cup protocol, there would have been no need for Oliver to look at the monitor for such an offside decision and it was an obvious penalty which it seemed clear Oliver was going to give should he be informed that Kane was onside.