Author Topic: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa  (Read 1183 times)

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ARF

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #30 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 12:51 »
The question of the length of the review is still unanswered as the only part worth looking at was the Ramsey/cavani incident.
VAR would have to check the factual decisions first though (whether Watkins touched it, meaning that Ings would have been offside, and also whether it touched Ings' hand) before they can then look at Ramsey-Cavani and say to MO "Ramsey's in an offside position, we're going to recommend an OFR as we believe he's interfered with an opponent". Obviously that's all going to take time.

bruntyboy

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #31 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 13:33 »
A lot of this goes back to changes to offside over recent years and now "phases" where a phase can be less than a second in time.

As a certain Mr B Clough of Nottingham used to say "If he isn't interfering with play, what's he doing on the pitch?"

When the free kick is played there are 2 Villa players standing in the middle of the 18 yard box but not deemed to be "interfering with play" and can receive a 5-10 yards headstart on any defenders coming back into the box. However if a defending player is lying injured on the floor or even off the pitch behind the goal-line during play then they are always deemed to be active.

Also why was Konsa allowed to return to his defensive position on the pitch before the goal kick was taken (after having received treatment for his bloody nose) whereas Dalot had to go off the pitch before a corner was taken (after receiving treatment for his bloody foot)? 


rustyref

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #32 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 13:45 »
Having watched the highlights and the incident again in more detail I agree with the poster that it is quite clearly offside, and quite rightly given. The question of the length of the review is still unanswered as the only part worth looking at was the Ramsey/cavani incident.
Not sure why our top referee and assistant (Stuart burt?) couldn’t have come to the decision themselves as Ramsey is clearly offside when the ball comes in.

Not sure why anyone is listening to pundits like shearer and Richards who clearly don’t know the laws, even waffling on to a totally different issue during an answer despite lineker reading out the wording of the law.

He's clearly offside yes, but at the point he becomes active in blocking Cavani Stuart Burt is looking through a mass of bodies and there is no way he could have seen Ramsey block off Cavani.  Perhaps Michael Oliver could have seen it, but he would have only known Ramsay was offside if Burt had told him, and he appears to be looking at the main body of players and might not have seen it.

The problem is if they just checked this incident and Oliver said he didn't think it was interfering they would have then had to go back and check the possible touch by Watkins and offside by Ings, and the possible handling by Ings, and that would have been even more messy.


OwdReds

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #33 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 14:45 »
I remember my staepfather saying a few years before his death in 1993 that he felt privileged to have been part of the generation who could watch football as a game and saying that I wouldn't have that. He had seen that money would lead to matches being played at different times to suit the whim of broadcasters and money playing an increasingly important role in the game. What he would have made of VAR i dread to think but ultimately I beleve that comes down to money first and foremost. Many of us grew up in an era when most games didn't have a camera at them and those that did had three cameras at the most. Controversial decisions couldn't often be cleared up by camera usage and we just had to acceot the decision of the officials whether we thought it was right or wrong. Now there are so many cameras at Premier League games that I get dizzy wondering which angle I'm looking at sometimes. Every decision can be scrutinised to the nth degree, including by VAR, because we have to arrive at the correct outcome for financial reasons even thoiugh some of those decisions must inevitably be subjective. We're never going to be able to turn the clock back but I'm glad that when I attend matches they're well below Premier League level and I can go along with the honest endeavours of the officials whether I believe them to be correct or not.
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Readingfan

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #34 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 14:54 »
With regard to the first disallowed goal it could be argued that Cavani ran into Ramsey, it could be argued that Cavani Was never going to get the ball. However the men that matter didnt see it in those ways, albeit Oliver didnt see the incident initially and neither did th ar flag.
Three and a half minutes to come to a decision is a long time.

It was given for offside by Ramsey as Oliver raised his arm after giving it, it wasn't for any potential foul.  Therefore Oliver couldn't give it real time as he isn't looking for offsides, and it is a long way from the AR for him to determine the contact.

As I said in the earlier post, I am far from sure it should have been disallowed, but I can just about see why it was.
But unless Ramsey committed a foul and prevented Cavani getting to the ball because of the foul, which is debatable, He could not be given offside as he didnt play the ball and wasnt interfering with play.
Whether watkins touched the ball is another matter but the ball didnt seem to move in its trajectory as us cricket fans would say.

I cant make up my mind whether ramsay stopped cavani playing the ball or if watkins touched it also rustyref but perhaps oliver gave an indirect free kick for obstruction rather than offside.

They will have said he was interfering with an opponent ...

 interfering with an opponent by:

• challenging an opponent for the ball or
• making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball


There is no doubt whatsoever he was in an offside position.  I don't think he challenged Cavani for the ball, but there is an argument that he was in an offside position and prevented Cavani any opportunity to play the ball by blocking him off.

First time I've ever seen an on-field review used for offside though.

I can recall a few on-field reviews for offside previously. Wasn't the first OFFR in a Champions League game for an interfering offside? I think it involved Skomina/Marciniak if I recall correctly - might have been an Ajax game?

Readingfan

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #35 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 15:14 »
This is what I don't understand. The on-field referee Oliver awarded the Villa goal, he did not rule it out for an infringement. I thought VAR was to be used to correct a clear and obvious error. VAR then took over three and a half minutes to come to a conclusion and instruct Oliver to go to a monitor. I submit, even accepting that VAR was looking at multiple issues, that if it takes three and a half minutes it cannot have been an error that was 'clear and obvious'

There is a general drift here of refereeing matches by VAR, the immediate decisions of the on-field referee counting for less and less. It is completely changing the dynamic of match officiating and I deplore it.

I note there has been much discussion on RTR about VAR only being used in some matches in the 3rd Round of the FA Cup. I don't always agree with Alan Shearer on matters but his comments last night saying that it should be at all or none I heartily endorse. Equality under the law is a foundational principle of justice. Having VAR at some matches and not others means that they are being adjudicated in quite different ways. it is unjust.

I disagree with Shearer's view. It is equal for both teams participating in that particular match and, unlike a league, one FA Cup game doesn't have a significant impact on another (and for those who argue it should only be introduced once every game in a particular round can use VAR, I would argue that two fifth round ties don't really have any more of an impact on each other than a fifth and fourth round tie.)

Each club has the opportunity to be drawn away at a Premier League ground, and therefore have VAR.

In many walks of life, there are beneficial systems in place that might not be 100% perfect and might not be 100% available but these will still often be used where possible, rather than aiming to implement a 'worse' system 100% of the time. I think an approach of trying to get as many correct decisions in as many games as possible outweighs the possibility that some decisions might not be corrected or attempting to aim for a system where fewer correct decisions are made.

As for the time element, it does not seem that the 3 and a half minutes were spent just considering one aspect of the decision, which might suggest considerable doubt on the VAR's part. Where there are multiple dimensions to a decision then it's always likely to take a bit longer. In many cases, the officials will presumably be implementing training/guidance they have been given on specific situations, so whilst something might be subjective, it would fall into a category where most SG1 officials would have a similar interpretation, and therefore would be regarded as clear and obvious to the group.
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Whistleblower

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #36 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 16:23 »
This is what I don't understand. The on-field referee Oliver awarded the Villa goal, he did not rule it out for an infringement. I thought VAR was to be used to correct a clear and obvious error. VAR then took over three and a half minutes to come to a conclusion and instruct Oliver to go to a monitor. I submit, even accepting that VAR was looking at multiple issues, that if it takes three and a half minutes it cannot have been an error that was 'clear and obvious'

There is a general drift here of refereeing matches by VAR, the immediate decisions of the on-field referee counting for less and less. It is completely changing the dynamic of match officiating and I deplore it.

I note there has been much discussion on RTR about VAR only being used in some matches in the 3rd Round of the FA Cup. I don't always agree with Alan Shearer on matters but his comments last night saying that it should be at all or none I heartily endorse. Equality under the law is a foundational principle of justice. Having VAR at some matches and not others means that they are being adjudicated in quite different ways. it is unjust.

I disagree with Shearer's view. It is equal for both teams participating in that particular match and, unlike a league, one FA Cup game doesn't have a significant impact on another (and for those who argue it should only be introduced once every game in a particular round can use VAR, I would argue that two fifth round ties don't really have any more of an impact on each other than a fifth and fourth round tie.)

Each club has the opportunity to be drawn away at a Premier League ground, and therefore have VAR.

In many walks of life, there are beneficial systems in place that might not be 100% perfect and might not be 100% available but these will still often be used where possible, rather than aiming to implement a 'worse' system 100% of the time. I think an approach of trying to get as many correct decisions in as many games as possible outweighs the possibility that some decisions might not be corrected or attempting to aim for a system where fewer correct decisions are made.

As for the time element, it does not seem that the 3 and a half minutes were spent just considering one aspect of the decision, which might suggest considerable doubt on the VAR's part. Where there are multiple dimensions to a decision then it's always likely to take a bit longer. In many cases, the officials will presumably be implementing training/guidance they have been given on specific situations, so whilst something might be subjective, it would fall into a category where most SG1 officials would have a similar interpretation, and therefore would be regarded as clear and obvious to the group.


I can see the merit of the 100% argument but I don't accept it because for me, treating everyone the same carries more weight than supposed better accuracy. Indeed, if I were to buy the accuracy argument ( and the history of VAR so far makes that a very moot point ) it highlights even more the discrimination against those clubs operating in matches where there is no recall to 'greater' accuracy. You might advance the argument against me that I am making the perfect the enemy of the good and were VAR to be shown to be infallible then I might give it more credence. However, it seems to me that VAR can be as capricious as on-field officiating and I cannot be persuaded that matches in the same round of the same competition should be adjudicated differently.

It all comes down to preference in the end.  I like football because it has a pace and a dynamic to it; it is restless and on the move. If you want a game where you believe greater accuracy justifies VAR stoppages then fair enough but ( as Sam Goldwyn once memorably said 'include me out' ) I watch most of my live football at a level lower than the Premiership and so, for a while, I can enjoy matches free of VAR interruptions. However, in time it will come; I am quite resigned to that.
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Whistleblower

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #37 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 16:31 »
Re-reading my post above I can see that some might say that I was conflating two arguments, the inequity of different adjudication and a dislike of VAR. This might be so. I do not like VAR and would happily see it scrapped but it is here to stay and so should be used in a way which is equal and fair to all participants in the same stage of the same competition. When that can happen then my argument about inequity falls, I do accept that and I am just left with a dislike of the system.
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Claretman

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #38 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 16:54 »
I have packed my sleeping bag ready for the tea time kick off on sat as i look forward to the var forensically checking every single corner and free kick to ensure blocking off an opponent or manhandling an opponent is penalised correctly to the letter of the law.
I appreciate the var can only intervene in the case of disallowing a goal, offside, violent conduct, serious foul play or the awarding of a penalty kick. However as the bar has now been set by pgmol, consistency is required and if the referees
Allow the correct time for these reviews it wont be long before we get at least 15 minutes added to each half.

Ps i do have a sense of humour.
I also agree with steve gerrard that if var give a decision you have to accept it and move on. His team need to be more proficient in front of goal and similarly in defensive areas.
« Last Edit: Tue 11 Jan 2022 20:52 by Claretman »
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Ref Watcher

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #39 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 17:17 »
I also agree with steve gerrard that if var give a decision you habe to accept it and move on. His team need to be more proficient in front of goal and similarly in defensive areas.
One of the more sensible reactions from a manager.  He has gone up in my estimation.

RCG

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #40 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 18:03 »
In rugby, the TMO has often focussed on one incident and missed another, more important and material incident. This has led to howlers and so it is right that time is taken to review the situation. Rugby has tried to playback to the crowd discussions between TMO and the referee. Not sure if football could learn anything. In fact note sure if it works for rugby but the crowd which is increasingly being disenfranchised deserves better.

At prem rugby grounds you can tune in to the refeees mic on an earpiece so you are fully aware of all decisions, all discussions.
The announcing to crowd is being trialled in Prem Rugby Cup matches, we will wait and see.