Author Topic: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa  (Read 1014 times)

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rustyref

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #15 on: Mon 10 Jan 2022 23:23 »
With regard to the first disallowed goal it could be argued that Cavani ran into Ramsey, it could be argued that Cavani Was never going to get the ball. However the men that matter didnt see it in those ways, albeit Oliver didnt see the incident initially and neither did th ar flag.
Three and a half minutes to come to a decision is a long time.

It was given for offside by Ramsey as Oliver raised his arm after giving it, it wasn't for any potential foul.  Therefore Oliver couldn't give it real time as he isn't looking for offsides, and it is a long way from the AR for him to determine the contact.

As I said in the earlier post, I am far from sure it should have been disallowed, but I can just about see why it was.
But unless Ramsey committed a foul and prevented Cavani getting to the ball because of the foul, which is debatable, He could not be given offside as he didnt play the ball and wasnt interfering with play.
Whether watkins touched the ball is another matter but the ball didnt seem to move in its trajectory as us cricket fans would say.

I cant make up my mind whether ramsay stopped cavani playing the ball or if watkins touched it also rustyref but perhaps oliver gave an indirect free kick for obstruction rather than offside.

They will have said he was interfering with an opponent ...

 interfering with an opponent by:

ē challenging an opponent for the ball or
ē making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball


There is no doubt whatsoever he was in an offside position.  I don't think he challenged Cavani for the ball, but there is an argument that he was in an offside position and prevented Cavani any opportunity to play the ball by blocking him off.

First time I've ever seen an on-field review used for offside though.


Ref Fan

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #16 on: Mon 10 Jan 2022 23:31 »
I noticed Oliver took time to explain the decision to a couple of Villa Players.   We've seen goals disallowed for a player interfering with a goalkeepers line of sight but was there an OFR in that situation?  I had a feeling there was but could be wrong.

ajb95

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #17 on: Mon 10 Jan 2022 23:58 »
Only saw the second half, but how long did that VAR review take? Ridiculous. If it was taking that long then it isnít a clear and obvious error

Think both Shaw and McGinn were lucky it was a cup game as I think both would have been off had it been a league game
The Laws donít change for different competitions. Shaw should have been cautioned long before he was either for the reckless challenge on the touch line or for persistent infringement. Fernandes should also have been cautioned much earlier.

Michael Oliver is our best referee but I donít think tonight was his usual standard.

True, but itís quite a common thing nowadays that referees certainly officiate in a more lenient manner for a cup game than a league game. Whether you think thatís right or wrong thatís how it is
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Affy_Moose

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #18 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 00:29 »
With regard to the first disallowed goal it could be argued that Cavani ran into Ramsey, it could be argued that Cavani Was never going to get the ball. However the men that matter didnt see it in those ways, albeit Oliver didnt see the incident initially and neither did th ar flag.
Three and a half minutes to come to a decision is a long time.

It was given for offside by Ramsey as Oliver raised his arm after giving it, it wasn't for any potential foul.  Therefore Oliver couldn't give it real time as he isn't looking for offsides, and it is a long way from the AR for him to determine the contact.

As I said in the earlier post, I am far from sure it should have been disallowed, but I can just about see why it was.
But unless Ramsey committed a foul and prevented Cavani getting to the ball because of the foul, which is debatable, He could not be given offside as he didnt play the ball and wasnt interfering with play.
Whether watkins touched the ball is another matter but the ball didnt seem to move in its trajectory as us cricket fans would say.

I cant make up my mind whether ramsay stopped cavani playing the ball or if watkins touched it also rustyref but perhaps oliver gave an indirect free kick for obstruction rather than offside.

They will have said he was interfering with an opponent ...

 interfering with an opponent by:

ē challenging an opponent for the ball or
ē making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball


There is no doubt whatsoever he was in an offside position.  I don't think he challenged Cavani for the ball, but there is an argument that he was in an offside position and prevented Cavani any opportunity to play the ball by blocking him off.

First time I've ever seen an on-field review used for offside though.

The majority of FIFA videos for interfering with play are clips like this one.  As you say, he prevented Cavani having any opportunity to play the ball.

Itís 100% an offside decision.  For those in the officiating in the English game, I would be highly surprised if that wasnít one of your monthly/annual training clips that local associations put on within the next 12 months.  Itís a great clip for grassroots, and senior training.

Leggy

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #19 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 08:28 »
Only saw the second half, but how long did that VAR review take? Ridiculous. If it was taking that long then it isnít a clear and obvious error

Think both Shaw and McGinn were lucky it was a cup game as I think both would have been off had it been a league game
The Laws donít change for different competitions. Shaw should have been cautioned long before he was either for the reckless challenge on the touch line or for persistent infringement. Fernandes should also have been cautioned much earlier.

Michael Oliver is our best referee but I donít think tonight was his usual standard.

True, but itís quite a common thing nowadays that referees certainly officiate in a more lenient manner for a cup game than a league game. Whether you think thatís right or wrong thatís how it is

I don't think it is wrong.  I know it is.
« Last Edit: Tue 11 Jan 2022 17:15 by Leggy »
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Failed Ref

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #20 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 08:57 »
The problem with the modern game is that you are never quite sure what you are going to get in terms of the threshold for fouls. International games, league games or cup games, there appears to be varying thresholds for offences, the ones where VAR cannot be used. Consistency has not been achieved although I accept my view is one that is hard to back up with evidence.
As for putting arm around players? If it were Manchester United v Cambridge, think what Cambridge players would think if the referee put an arm around a Manchester player, a player the referee probably knows very well. I could just accept putting an arm around a player from either side to defuse a 1:1 confrontation but even so I would rather not see it. Players cannot touch referees and the converse should be true.
As for VAR? The length of time taken is perhaps understandable but what about the communication with fans? As for the integrity of the competition, why was VAR even used? Villa may then have got something out of the game which they contributed to in a positive way.
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Whistleblower

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #21 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 09:51 »
This is what I don't understand. The on-field referee Oliver awarded the Villa goal, he did not rule it out for an infringement. I thought VAR was to be used to correct a clear and obvious error. VAR then took over three and a half minutes to come to a conclusion and instruct Oliver to go to a monitor. I submit, even accepting that VAR was looking at multiple issues, that if it takes three and a half minutes it cannot have been an error that was 'clear and obvious'

There is a general drift here of refereeing matches by VAR, the immediate decisions of the on-field referee counting for less and less. It is completely changing the dynamic of match officiating and I deplore it.

I note there has been much discussion on RTR about VAR only being used in some matches in the 3rd Round of the FA Cup. I don't always agree with Alan Shearer on matters but his comments last night saying that it should be at all or none I heartily endorse. Equality under the law is a foundational principle of justice. Having VAR at some matches and not others means that they are being adjudicated in quite different ways. it is unjust.
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Hendo

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #22 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 10:27 »
This is what I don't understand. The on-field referee Oliver awarded the Villa goal, he did not rule it out for an infringement. I thought VAR was to be used to correct a clear and obvious error. VAR then took over three and a half minutes to come to a conclusion and instruct Oliver to go to a monitor. I submit, even accepting that VAR was looking at multiple issues, that if it takes three and a half minutes it cannot have been an error that was 'clear and obvious'

There is a general drift here of refereeing matches by VAR, the immediate decisions of the on-field referee counting for less and less. It is completely changing the dynamic of match officiating and I deplore it.

I note there has been much discussion on RTR about VAR only being used in some matches in the 3rd Round of the FA Cup. I don't always agree with Alan Shearer on matters but his comments last night saying that it should be at all or none I heartily endorse. Equality under the law is a foundational principle of justice. Having VAR at some matches and not others means that they are being adjudicated in quite different ways. it is unjust.

Hear, hear, excellent post Whistleblower.
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Ref25

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #23 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 10:29 »
I didnít watch the whole match and have only seen the incident in isolation. In my opinion, it is clearly an offside offence against Ramsey and the correct decision has been given.

> Ramsey is in an offside position when the ball is kicked.
> Ramsey looks straight at Cavani and puts his arms into him / blocks Cavaniís path (I actually think itís probably a direct free kick offence for blocking, but that is debatable). He makes a movement towards Cavani.
> Cavani is clearly tracking back to cover the other Aston Villa player who heads the ball from the free kick.
> At the point the free kick is taken, Cavani is about one yard closer to the goal line than the Aston Villa player who heads the ball. It is reasonable to assume Cavani would be able to challenge for the ball had Ramsey not done what he did.

Why the long VAR check? 3:36 according to the pundits. As has been said, the officials have to look at a lot of things here:

Is it an offside offence by Ramsey?
Is it a foul (block) by Ramsey?
Is there an offside offence by the goal scorer (i.e. was the ball touched on after the header)?
Is it handball by the goal scorer?

Iím not sure it is good enough just to stop at the first one and not look at the other potential offences. Whilst I think it is clear, it is nonetheless a matter of interpretation whether Ramsey has interfered with an opponent and perhaps an on field review is appropriate.

What if the referee says ĎNo, I donít think he has interfered with the opponentí and VAR hasnít checked everything else? Do they say ďhold on, weíve got to check some other thingsĒ and tell the referee to stand by the monitor for a bit? That would look awful.

Maybe VAR said Ďwe think itís a clear block by Ramsey and we are recommending an on field review for a foul but there is also a question of offside if not enough for a blockí. The referee may have said Ďnot a foul for me but enough for interfering with an opponent and offsideí.

I think a lot is being made out of this when there isnít much there. The right decision has been reached and with four potential offences to look at, the VAR check isnít excessively long at 3:36.
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Failed Ref

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #24 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 10:53 »
In rugby, the TMO has often focussed on one incident and missed another, more important and material incident. This has led to howlers and so it is right that time is taken to review the situation. Rugby has tried to playback to the crowd discussions between TMO and the referee. Not sure if football could learn anything. In fact note sure if it works for rugby but the crowd which is increasingly being disenfranchised deserves better.
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Whistleblower

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #25 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 11:19 »
I didnít watch the whole match and have only seen the incident in isolation. In my opinion, it is clearly an offside offence against Ramsey and the correct decision has been given.

> Ramsey is in an offside position when the ball is kicked.
> Ramsey looks straight at Cavani and puts his arms into him / blocks Cavaniís path (I actually think itís probably a direct free kick offence for blocking, but that is debatable). He makes a movement towards Cavani.
> Cavani is clearly tracking back to cover the other Aston Villa player who heads the ball from the free kick.
> At the point the free kick is taken, Cavani is about one yard closer to the goal line than the Aston Villa player who heads the ball. It is reasonable to assume Cavani would be able to challenge for the ball had Ramsey not done what he did.

Why the long VAR check? 3:36 according to the pundits. As has been said, the officials have to look at a lot of things here:

Is it an offside offence by Ramsey?
Is it a foul (block) by Ramsey?
Is there an offside offence by the goal scorer (i.e. was the ball touched on after the header)?
Is it handball by the goal scorer?

Iím not sure it is good enough just to stop at the first one and not look at the other potential offences. Whilst I think it is clear, it is nonetheless a matter of interpretation whether Ramsey has interfered with an opponent and perhaps an on field review is appropriate.

What if the referee says ĎNo, I donít think he has interfered with the opponentí and VAR hasnít checked everything else? Do they say ďhold on, weíve got to check some other thingsĒ and tell the referee to stand by the monitor for a bit? That would look awful.

Maybe VAR said Ďwe think itís a clear block by Ramsey and we are recommending an on field review for a foul but there is also a question of offside if not enough for a blockí. The referee may have said Ďnot a foul for me but enough for interfering with an opponent and offsideí.

I think a lot is being made out of this when there isnít much there. The right decision has been reached and with four potential offences to look at, the VAR check isnít excessively long at 3:36.


An excellent post, if I may say so Ref25 even though I do not concur with it. I remain unconvinced that the 'clear and obvious' threshold has been met ( presuming 'clear and obvious' is still the protocol; it may have changed to allow even more scope for VAR to referee matches ) and I stand absolutely by my assertion that for VAR to be employed at some matches and not others is fundamentally inequitable.
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Seagull

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #26 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 11:21 »
Surely, this is a prime example of why it would be useful to be allowed to hear the discussion between the on-field Referee and the VAR. Whether we agree or disagree with the final decision, at least everybody would know WHY the goal was disallowed, rather than have all this speculation and guesswork.
« Last Edit: Tue 11 Jan 2022 11:44 by Seagull »
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Whistleblower

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #27 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 12:04 »
Surely, this is a prime example of why it would be useful to be allowed to hear the discussion between the on-field Referee and the VAR. Whether we agree or disagree with the final decision, at least everybody would know WHY the goal was disallowed, rather than have all this speculation and guesswork.


If we are going down the route of VAR officiating at matches ( I don't like it but I suspect this is a one way street ) then why not follow a lead from American Football where the Officiating Crew will deliberate about a certain passage of play leading to a decision, arrive at their conclusion and then explain it through a microphone to the crowd. I have been to such matches and the system seems to work well. Admittedly in American Football there are lots of phases of play with pauses in between but that is exactly how Association Football is going to end up with increasing use of VAR. Therefore if the authorities are inventing a "new" game, or at least officiated in a new way, then good communication with the audience would seem most desirable.
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Seagull

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #28 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 12:15 »
Surely, this is a prime example of why it would be useful to be allowed to hear the discussion between the on-field Referee and the VAR. Whether we agree or disagree with the final decision, at least everybody would know WHY the goal was disallowed, rather than have all this speculation and guesswork.


If we are going down the route of VAR officiating at matches ( I don't like it but I suspect this is a one way street ) then why not follow a lead from American Football where the Officiating Crew will deliberate about a certain passage of play leading to a decision, arrive at their conclusion and then explain it through a microphone to the crowd. I have been to such matches and the system seems to work well. Admittedly in American Football there are lots of phases of play with pauses in between but that is exactly how Association Football is going to end up with increasing use of VAR. Therefore if the authorities are inventing a "new" game, or at least officiated in a new way, then good communication with the audience would seem most desirable.

I think any final decision needs to remain with the on-field Referee based on information from VAR but if, in this instance, we'd been privy to the discussion between Messrs. Oliver and England followed by Mr. Oliver's explanation to the players, we would all have been in a better position.

ajb95

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Re: M OLIVER - Man U v Aston Villa
« Reply #29 on: Tue 11 Jan 2022 12:30 »
Having watched the highlights and the incident again in more detail I agree with the poster that it is quite clearly offside, and quite rightly given. The question of the length of the review is still unanswered as the only part worth looking at was the Ramsey/cavani incident.
Not sure why our top referee and assistant (Stuart burt?) couldnít have come to the decision themselves as Ramsey is clearly offside when the ball comes in.

Not sure why anyone is listening to pundits like shearer and Richards who clearly donít know the laws, even waffling on to a totally different issue during an answer despite lineker reading out the wording of the law.