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Author Topic: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City  (Read 2829 times)

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QuoCob

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #30 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 12:08 »
I reckon the monitor pitch side isn’t actually plugged in at any ground.

“Display Model Only”

They are all from the IKEA showrooms...
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Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
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Microscopist

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #31 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 12:42 »
Quote
They are all from the IKEA showrooms...
The referees or the monitors?
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QuoCob

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #32 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 13:03 »
Quote
They are all from the IKEA showrooms...
The referees or the monitors?

Maybe that's where the VAR operations room is viewing the proceedings from, Stockley Park IKEA... :-)
“They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.”  Laurence Binyon

Scally Bob

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #33 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 13:15 »
Quote
They are all from the IKEA showrooms...
The referees or the monitors?
I don’t know about the monitors but hands up everyone who has a handful of IKEA pencils in their kit bag.
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QuoCob

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #34 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 13:21 »
Quote
They are all from the IKEA showrooms...
The referees or the monitors?
I don’t know about the monitors but hands up everyone who has a handful of IKEA pencils in their kit bag.

Especially since the bookies went plastic... my golf bag contains a few as well...
“They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.”  Laurence Binyon

kelxref

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #35 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 13:51 »
This is a real dog's dinner.  We have Hackett saying VAR should have given the penalty but he makes no mention, and probably wasn't aware at the time, of the ball touching Siva's arm first.  Clattenburg says no penalty was correct but that the wrong reason has been given - Silva's handball should have been the reason, otherwise it should have been a penalty as TAA's arm wasn't in a natural position; and Halsey thought Oliver's view may have been restricted by Aguero but VAR should have advised a penalty. Halsey's comments raised a question in my mind:  we don't know what Michael Oliver saw or thought he saw and whether he had a good view (I still think it wasn't the best angle).  But suppose he thought it might be a penalty but wasn't sure enough and therefore wanted VAR to look at it.  Could he have blown straightaway for the VAR check to avoid the risk of a breakaway and goal at the other end, which of course is what happened?  (If VAR had then stated no penalty, how would the game restart?)  Or, not having made a decision, is he obliged to let play continue?
Hackett's version is wrong according to the latest version of the law on handball. Clattenburg's observation is correct but his conclusion is flawed for the reason given by Readingfan - if you allow play to continue after a "deliberate" handball then a player can catch the ball run to the edge of the penalty area and boot the ball upfield.  Halsey is wrong insofar as  a penalty should not have been awarded (for the same reason as Hackett) but is correct that VAR should have intervened.  Play should have been allowed to continue but called back for a Liverpool free kick after the VAR check was completed.  To allow the goal to stand means that advantage was given to the perpetrator of the handball, a new concept.



Whilst I agree with your point about that handball should be defined in terms of gaining an advantage (and defined the same for defenders and attackers), in this case under the current laws, I think Mark Clattenburg's view has merit. Whether Silva's handling of the ball is deliberate or not, it does deflect the ball towards TAA (arguably) within close proximity and this is an exception to the unnatural position criterion for a deliberate handball?  If that is the case, then even if Silva's handling is deliberate then TAA has not committed a handling offence and so playing an advantage is ok.

This is of course a bit of moot argument as the PGMOL have said that Silva's handball played no part in the decision. For the second week running their comments pose more questions than they answer. If they are going to say anything then I think they should say exactly why it was not a penalty and relate that directly to the current wording of the laws. Henry Winter in the Times this morning thought that the PGMOL quote "it did not meet the considerations for a deliberate handball" confusing and insulting, and that managers and supporters deserve better.


Readingfan

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #36 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 14:44 »
It is not fully clear to me if the PGMOL are providing their own opinion on why no penalty was the right decision (if they believe that to be the case) or are just providing the judgement of the indivdiual official(s) involved.

It isn't really helped by the fact we are often hearing this through a third party in the media who might misunderstand or not fully convey the PGMOL's messsage.

I have felt for some time that the PGMOL should have their own platform where they can directly communicate with people through a website or a Youtube channel etc (rather lke PRO do in America).

Microscopist

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #37 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 15:27 »
Quote
Whilst I agree with your point about that handball should be defined in terms of gaining an advantage (and defined the same for defenders and attackers), in this case under the current laws, I think Mark Clattenburg's view has merit. Whether Silva's handling of the ball is deliberate or not, it does deflect the ball towards TAA (arguably) within close proximity and this is an exception to the unnatural position criterion for a deliberate handball?  If that is the case, then even if Silva's handling is deliberate then TAA has not committed a handling offence and so playing an advantage is ok.
I've just taken another look at the video and would make the following points:
a) the deflection off Bernado is not very great and takes the ball slightly away from TAA;
b) it is around 3 to 4 metres away and TAA has a good view of it;
c) shortly after the deflection TAA's arm is bent at the elbow with his hand in front of his waist but at the point of contact his arm has straightened and is at about 45 degrees to his body.
I can't see any argument for ruling it as not deliberate.

Readingfan

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #38 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 16:08 »
Oliver had to make a decision either way - the referee is not permitted to stop play having made a non-decision.

I would say both managers were probably fortunate to get away without at least a yellow card being shown across the match.
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mac

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #39 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 17:25 »
1 - I think there's enough to award handball against TAA
2 - this is irrelevant because it was created by an attacking handball, regardless of intent
3 - it's a tough call to say TAA created a goal scoring chance by handling in the build up, but I get that it doesn't sit right
4 - good luck selling to Anfield (or any ground) that you're disallowing the goal not to give a penalty but to give a defensive free kick
5 - it's a mess!! Not sure on the best way to resolve it. Quite frankly I hate it and would much rather watch the championship or FL games

Appreciate the way Oliver let the game flow but I think we need to see more action against the technical area staff. Guardiola and Klopp's conduct was embarrassing. I think dissent was largely decreasing in recent years but VAR has seen a massive spike, and laws need to be stronger to penalise it. I've been saying the same since the 2018 WC and all the gesturing.
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dave26

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #40 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 17:47 »
As someone pointed out football used to be simple game with players managers and officials making mistakes but it was accepted as far as refereeing mistakes are concerned but it seems to me personally with VAR in the PL there are being more mistakes and controversy than ever,  part of the problem is that referees don’t use pitchside monitors

As a result I think some of the older referees may get fed up and call it a day as a football fan I don’t have the same enthusiasm anymore as it’s ruined the game for me personally
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QuoCob

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #41 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 18:14 »
As someone pointed out football used to be simple game with players managers and officials making mistakes but it was accepted as far as refereeing mistakes are concerned but it seems to me personally with VAR in the PL there are being more mistakes and controversy than ever,  part of the problem is that referees don’t use pitchside monitors

As a result I think some of the older referees may get fed up and call it a day as a football fan I don’t have the same enthusiasm anymore as it’s ruined the game for me personally

I am happy to be absent from the intimacy and burden of the PL and VAR with my Fourth Division and below football.  Officials make mistakes by giving decisions as they see them with their Mark 1 eyeballs.  Most weeks its a case of: We got beat/we won, we were disadvantaged/benefitted from a bad/mistaken decision, we 'enjoy' the celebration/dejection immediately after each goal, we discuss the decision(s) on the bus home, agree that s4it happens and 'will even itself out at the end of the season' and look forward to the next game. 

Much better than the protracted fiasco we see in the PL that continues long into the next week fuelled by the media scrutiny and over reactions to the technology assisted humans.
“They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.”  Laurence Binyon
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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #42 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 18:15 »
This is a real dog's dinner.  We have Hackett saying VAR should have given the penalty but he makes no mention, and probably wasn't aware at the time, of the ball touching Siva's arm first.  Clattenburg says no penalty was correct but that the wrong reason has been given - Silva's handball should have been the reason, otherwise it should have been a penalty as TAA's arm wasn't in a natural position; and Halsey thought Oliver's view may have been restricted by Aguero but VAR should have advised a penalty.

Halsey's comments raised a question in my mind:  we don't know what Michael Oliver saw or thought he saw and whether he had a good view (I still think it wasn't the best angle).  But suppose he thought it might be a penalty but wasn't sure enough and therefore wanted VAR to look at it.  Could he have blown straightaway for the VAR check to avoid the risk of a breakaway and goal at the other end, which of course is what happened?  (If VAR had then stated no penalty, how would the game restart?)  Or, not having made a decision, is he obliged to let play continue?

Absolutely love this - despite my young age!!

Football used to be such a simple game both to play and to watch. Players got things wrong, managers got things wrong and officials got  the odd thing wrong and yet, we just accepted it all and played the game and enjoyed it at whatever level.

Why is there this obsession that everything must be 100% correct? Football, llike life, is just not like that and never will be, no matter how much technology is introduced. All that has happened with VAR is that it has brought into play even more opinions and, as can be seen from the opinions on this board, there will never be 100% agreement.

I used to love it when the referee's decision was final even if you didn't agree with it.

RCG

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #43 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 18:23 »
I think Oliver's opinion of the TAA handball was very obvious - loud shout of no, shaking of head and the cross/chop of the arms
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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #44 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 18:26 »
1 - I think there's enough to award handball against TAA
2 - this is irrelevant because it was created by an attacking handball, regardless of intent
3 - it's a tough call to say TAA created a goal scoring chance by handling in the build up, but I get that it doesn't sit right
4 - good luck selling to Anfield (or any ground) that you're disallowing the goal not to give a penalty but to give a defensive free kick
5 - it's a mess!! Not sure on the best way to resolve it. Quite frankly I hate it and would much rather watch the championship or FL games

Appreciate the way Oliver let the game flow but I think we need to see more action against the technical area staff. Guardiola and Klopp's conduct was embarrassing. I think dissent was largely decreasing in recent years but VAR has seen a massive spike, and laws need to be stronger to penalise it. I've been saying the same since the 2018 WC and all the gesturing.

Mac I concur with you totally. All these people saying it is an easy decision, or clearly a deliberate handball have never refereed a game before.
In terms of determining a handball offence this is probably the hardest decision I have ever seen. I have spoken to 18 people today - some refs some not - and at the moment it is 9 no penalty and 9 yes penalty.
Whichever decision was given I think can be supported.
Personally I don’t think it’s a penalty: if you have a look at the freeze frame as it hits Bernardo you can see TAA arm is already out poised to defend. One cannot defend with ones arms limp at ones side as you would have no mobility. But as has been pointed out there was sufficient amount of time for TAA to move his hand away from the ball.
What was more surprising is that aguero stops: if he did what all footballers are taught from the age of 6 which is play to the whistle he could have gathered the ball and had a shot at goal.
The unfortunate thing about the whole situation is that a goal was scored: had Liverpool not gone down the other end and scored there wouldn’t be half as much coverage.
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