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Author Topic: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City  (Read 2832 times)

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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #15 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:33 »
Just a couple of side notes:
The ball hit bernarndo Silva’s hand in the build-up so would VAR have had to give a free kick to Liverpool had it been reviewed?

Also, the amount of dissent that both Klopp and Guardiola in particular get away with is disgusting!
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Irishref1985

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #16 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:49 »
I think Michael Oliver's performance showed why he is the best in the business. He was outstanding and always in the right places to make decisions. He was excellent. After neither Martin Atkinson or VAR Anthony Taylor didn't give a penalty for handball to Everton v Spurs last week, there's no chance that Paul Tierney was going to advise Oliver to give a penalty against Liverpool in that situation. In my view anyway, it's a free out as Silva handled in the build up. His decision to give a non-award of a penalty for the second penalty call in the second half was on the money.  Also fair play to Simon Bennett for his non-flag for Salah's goal.. It was a very good call and was a tight one. Top performance in my opinion. His game management was very impressive and the same goes to Mike Dean as fourth official when it reached boiling point on a couple of occasions.
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badref

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #17 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:51 »
Good point, however, TAA's non-handball led to the ball being cleared and a goal scored at the other end ---was this not involved in the build up?

Ex Select Group ref Bobby Madley tweeted about exactly this type of incident a couple of days ago and held a poll with his followers - https://twitter.com/BobbyMadley2/status/1192874379258089472?s=20

He also spoke to a number of people in the game and the consensus was that a goal should be given. In fact they are looking to change the law to include the words 'almost directly' to cover this.
https://twitter.com/BobbyMadley2/status/1192919382307037187?s=20

Ref Fan

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #18 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:52 »
Personally, I thought we saw our best 2 referees in the televised games today, though with different styles and approaches.  Anthony Taylor issued plenty of YCs but as far as I could see all were justified and he was consistent.  Excellent mobility on the pitch.

Perhaps more surprisingly, Michael Oliver decided to manage the game to give it a chance and while the 2 challenges referred to could (some might say should) have drawn cards, he opted for a stern warning which seemed to have the desired effect.  We can argue about the handball(s) till the cows come home but I thought he showed a lot of maturity in the way he handled the game.  Maybe he was too understanding of City's frustration in being lenient with the dissent but personally I'd be very happy to see high profile games like that with such intensity refereed to that level of performance.  And like Taylor, it's very impressive how he can get into good positions even from fast breakaways.

I can perfectly understand why Oliver and Taylor are our 2 FIFA elite referees.
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Readingfan

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #19 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 19:58 »
In the Spurs game earlier this season City were denied a winner when a goal bound shot slightly brushed Walkers arm when it was unintentional and there was no way he could get out of the way. So can someone please please please explain why City were not awarded a pen which might have changed to whole game, who knows.to me the whole handball situation is a complete random shambles, like VAR

Because since the beginning of this season the law is now stricter when it involves the scoring of a goal. You cannot score a goal if it involves a handball in the build up - any type of handball, accidental or not.

Good point, however, TAA's non-handball led to the ball being cleared and a goal scored at the other end ---was this not involved in the build up?

I think you would be stretching it to say that it led to a goal or a goal-scoring opportunity

It was at the other end of the pitch and a lot happened in between.

Microscopist

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #20 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 21:05 »
I think that flipmode's description of footballers applies to the law makers, who don't seem able to think through the changes they make.  With the current law clearly City couldn't have had a penalty because the ball touched Bernado's hand first and awarding a penalty would have created a goal scoring opportunity but that doesn't mean that a defender can then handle the ball with impunity.  Differentiating between attackers and defenders in the penalty area with regard to handball makes no sense to me.  My view is that the criteria for handball, generally, but particularly in the penalty area should be whether the hand to ball contact creates an advantage.  In the case of the Laporte handball the ball hardly deviated so I can't see that an advantage was gained, today's touch by Bernado,  I would say the same although it isn't so clear-cut.  Alexander-Arnold's contact did give him an advantage as it allowed him to clear the ball which led to, in time, to the Liverpool's goal.

It is true that City lost because they have a habit of not defending or blocking crosses into the penalty area, though I don't really see what bearing that has on the refereeing performance.  Neither should it stifle discussion of same.

In my eyes the team mainly committing "tactical" fouls was playing in red - didn't see any yellow cards for them.

« Last Edit: Mon 11 Nov 2019 11:52 by Microscopist »
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flipmode

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #21 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 21:16 »
At first I thought it was a penalty, but then I was reminded about the crazy IFAB ruling that came into play re attackers. It's just a complete farce imo. Totally innocuous handball on Bernardo Silva's part, but a match defining handball from TAA, with two City players waiting for a tap in.
I think the correct decision was made, maybe like an unofficial play on, given the circumstances, but it's so ridiculously unfair that it is so one sided in favor of the defending team.
David Silva olé.
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TheThingFromLewes

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #22 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 22:23 »
Until Riley is shown the revolving door nothing will change.
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Readingfan

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #23 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 23:11 »
PGMO say handball by Bernado wasn't considered in making the decision - it would otherwise suggest that following any accidental handball by an attacking player in the penalty area a defender could just deliberately catch the ball and get a defensive free kick!

If both the Bernado and Trent Alexander-Arnold situations had been considered handball offences then I think the correct restart would have been free-kick to Liverpool as  penalty can't be ignored?
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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #24 on: Sun 10 Nov 2019 23:24 »


If both the Bernado and Trent Alexander-Arnold situations had been considered handball offences then I think the correct restart would have been free-kick to Liverpool as  penalty can't be ignored?

Yes as handball bu silva comes first

Ref Fan

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #25 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 09:39 »
This is a real dog's dinner.  We have Hackett saying VAR should have given the penalty but he makes no mention, and probably wasn't aware at the time, of the ball touching Siva's arm first.  Clattenburg says no penalty was correct but that the wrong reason has been given - Silva's handball should have been the reason, otherwise it should have been a penalty as TAA's arm wasn't in a natural position; and Halsey thought Oliver's view may have been restricted by Aguero but VAR should have advised a penalty.

Halsey's comments raised a question in my mind:  we don't know what Michael Oliver saw or thought he saw and whether he had a good view (I still think it wasn't the best angle).  But suppose he thought it might be a penalty but wasn't sure enough and therefore wanted VAR to look at it.  Could he have blown straightaway for the VAR check to avoid the risk of a breakaway and goal at the other end, which of course is what happened?  (If VAR had then stated no penalty, how would the game restart?)  Or, not having made a decision, is he obliged to let play continue?

Ashington46

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #26 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 10:23 »
This is a real dog's dinner.  We have Hackett saying VAR should have given the penalty but he makes no mention, and probably wasn't aware at the time, of the ball touching Siva's arm first.  Clattenburg says no penalty was correct but that the wrong reason has been given - Silva's handball should have been the reason, otherwise it should have been a penalty as TAA's arm wasn't in a natural position; and Halsey thought Oliver's view may have been restricted by Aguero but VAR should have advised a penalty.

Halsey's comments raised a question in my mind:  we don't know what Michael Oliver saw or thought he saw and whether he had a good view (I still think it wasn't the best angle).  But suppose he thought it might be a penalty but wasn't sure enough and therefore wanted VAR to look at it.  Could he have blown straightaway for the VAR check to avoid the risk of a breakaway and goal at the other end, which of course is what happened?  (If VAR had then stated no penalty, how would the game restart?)  Or, not having made a decision, is he obliged to let play continue?

Football used to be such a simple game both to play and to watch. Players got things wrong, managers got things wrong and officials got  the odd thing wrong and yet, we just accepted it all and played the game and enjoyed it at whatever level.

Why is there this obsession that everything must be 100% correct? Football, llike life, is just not like that and never will be, no matter how much technology is introduced. All that has happened with VAR is that it has brought into play even more opinions and, as can be seen from the opinions on this board, there will never be 100% agreement.

I used to love it when the referee's decision was final even if you didn't agree with it.
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Microscopist

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #27 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 10:30 »
This is a real dog's dinner.  We have Hackett saying VAR should have given the penalty but he makes no mention, and probably wasn't aware at the time, of the ball touching Siva's arm first.  Clattenburg says no penalty was correct but that the wrong reason has been given - Silva's handball should have been the reason, otherwise it should have been a penalty as TAA's arm wasn't in a natural position; and Halsey thought Oliver's view may have been restricted by Aguero but VAR should have advised a penalty.

Halsey's comments raised a question in my mind:  we don't know what Michael Oliver saw or thought he saw and whether he had a good view (I still think it wasn't the best angle).  But suppose he thought it might be a penalty but wasn't sure enough and therefore wanted VAR to look at it.  Could he have blown straightaway for the VAR check to avoid the risk of a breakaway and goal at the other end, which of course is what happened?  (If VAR had then stated no penalty, how would the game restart?)  Or, not having made a decision, is he obliged to let play continue?
Hackett's version is wrong according to the latest version of the law on handball. Clattenburg's observation is correct but his conclusion is flawed for the reason given by Readingfan - if you allow play to continue after a "deliberate" handball then a player can catch the ball run to the edge of the penalty area and boot the ball upfield.  Halsey is wrong insofar as  a penalty should not have been awarded (for the same reason as Hackett) but is correct that VAR should have intervened.  Play should have been allowed to continue but called back for a Liverpool free kick after the VAR check was completed.  To allow the goal to stand means that advantage was given to the perpetrator of the handball, a new concept.


Ref Fan

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #28 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 11:15 »
 "To allow the goal to stand means that advantage was given to the perpetrator of the handball, a new concept"

I take it by 'perpetrator' you are referring to TTA Microscopist.  Isn't this predicated on TTA's being a handball offence (and Silva's not?). I think that's what is open to opinion, but makes for good debate, however frustrating it can be for managers, players and fans. I do take the point that if Silva's was considered handball, then it should have been a free kick to Liverpool but evidently wasn't a factor in the VAR decision.
« Last Edit: Mon 11 Nov 2019 11:29 by Ref Fan »

Microscopist

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Re: M Oliver Liverpool vs Man City
« Reply #29 on: Mon 11 Nov 2019 11:49 »
"To allow the goal to stand means that advantage was given to the perpetrator of the handball, a new concept"

I take it by 'perpetrator' you are referring to TTA Microscopist.  Isn't this predicated on TTA's being a handball offence (and Silva's not?). I think that's what is open to opinion, but makes for good debate, however frustrating it can be for managers, players and fans. I do take the point that if Silva's was considered handball, then it should have been a free kick to Liverpool but evidently wasn't a factor in the VAR decision.
Hi Ref Fan, if the incident had happened in the centre circle then Bernado's "handball" would not, I think, have been deemed deliberate and therefore only TAA's handball would have been penalised.  The only reason for considering Bernado's handball is because when TTA handled a penalty would have created a clear goal scoring opportunity - and as pointed out earlier it would have been even more ludricous to allow the penalty to be taken (and assuming it was scored!) disallowing the goal as it was created following the "so called no fault" handball by Bernado.  The problem goes back to IFAB who didn't have the wit to produce a proper change to the law that covered this eventuality.  Looking at whether the handball "created" an advantage would be a better concept, in my view.  Having decided whether it created an advantage then looking at whether it was deliberate or not would govern the issue of yellow or red cards.
Even if Bernado's handball had been seen as deliberate then surely the advantage stops when TAA handles the ball?
« Last Edit: Mon 11 Nov 2019 11:54 by Microscopist »