RateTheRef

This fan thinks he got the offside decision correct by using his phone as VAR

https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news-funny-fan-on-twitter-uses-his-phone-as-own-personal-var-and-its-brilliant-20191110

Quote from: mac on Mon 11 Nov 2019 17:25

Appreciate the way Oliver let the game flow but I think we need to see more action against the technical area staff. Guardiola and Klopp's conduct was embarrassing. I think dissent was largely decreasing in recent years but VAR has seen a massive spike, and laws need to be stronger to penalise it. I've been saying the same since the 2018 WC and all the gesturing.

I particularly agree with this comment.  Action should have been taken against Guardiola and Klopp for their repeated and open displays of dissent as it does the game no good at all.  More consistency is needed and there will be plenty of managers from so called lesser Clubs who can rightly claim that they were sent to the stands for far less.  I appreciate that people can get carried away with the emotion of a game such as this but managers, particularly at this level, have a responsibility to set an example and should be capable of controlling themselves.

Totally agree and isn't it a good job that Michael Oliver and his team didn't let themselves be dragged down to that level. They obviously put their trust in Mike Dean to keep things as calm as possible without exacerbating the situation.

If there was a time when people accepted referee mistakes then it must have been pre-1990s because in the 20+ years I've been watching football that hasn't been the case.

I absolutely believe that VAR is the right direction to go into but it just needs to be done much better. Therea are some obvious flaws that could be addressed in the first instance to help improve this.

In the longer-term, there might need to be reconsideration of some laws - the use of video refereeing means that specific incidents are disected in much more forensic detail. The wooly and unclear wording of some laws doesn't help as with VAR people often expect a more definitive decision.

I think mic'ing the officials up would help a lot.

Also doesn’t help that most of the decisions are subjective and therefore never 100% factual. Why do we need that to be the case now?!?

I've argued for a long time that more clarity is needed in the wording of certain laws - VAR simply adds an extra layer to that.

Even in the situation of yesterday's game, there are different interpretations amongst former referees as to whether Bernado Silva's handball should have been penalised, what constitutes a deliberate handball, when a handball contributes to the creation of a goal scoring opportunity, etc.

I think better wording of certain laws would help at all levels.

Personally I don’t think it’s a penalty: if you have a look at the freeze frame as it hits Bernardo you can see TAA arm is already out poised to defend. One cannot defend with ones arms limp at ones side as you would have no mobility. But as has been pointed out there was sufficient amount of time for TAA to move his hand away from the ball.

From the top - just after the ball has deflected off Bernardo's hand - note position of TAA's right arm
Next - ball halfway to TAA - note right arm has straightened and he is turning to face the ball
Bottom - immediately before impact with TAA's arm - note that he has turned further to face the ball and that his right arm is now extended at about 45 degrees.  The ball then deflects from the arm to his thigh.

His arm moves into the path of the ball - hand to ball contact not ball to hand.  Not very much scope for subjectivity I would say.

If our top referee can dismiss this, VAR presumably does not advise him or he doesn't take their advice and the PGMOL can put out such an inane rationale to claim that the handball is accidental then VAR is not the problem it is simply showing up the awful ineptitude of refereeing at the top level.

Just for completeness Aguero was surrounded by three Liverpool players as soon as the ball broke free - not much scope to play the ball.

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Personally I don’t think it’s a penalty: if you have a look at the freeze frame as it hits Bernardo you can see TAA arm is already out poised to defend. One cannot defend with ones arms limp at ones side as you would have no mobility. But as has been pointed out there was sufficient amount of time for TAA to move his hand away from the ball.

From the top - just after the ball has deflected off Bernardo's hand - note position of TAA's left arm
Next - ball halfway to TAA - note left arm has straightened and he is turning to face the ball
Bottom - immediately before impact with TAA's arm - note that he has turned further to face the ball and that his left arm is now extended at about 45 degrees.  The ball then deflects from the arm to his thigh.

His arm moves into the path of the ball - hand to ball contact not ball to hand.  Not very much scope for subjectivity I would say.

If our top referee can dismiss this, VAR presumably does not advise him or he doesn't take their advice and the PGMOL can put out such an inane rationale to claim that the handball is accidental then VAR is not the problem it is simply showing up the awful ineptitude of refereeing at the top level.

Just for completeness Aguero was surrounded by three Liverpool players as soon as the ball broke free - not much scope to play the ball.

You look at this to try to justify that a penalty should have been awarded, howeevr, you have completely ignored that fact that both Aguero and TAA were moving and that their arm movements are exactly the same ---I have a feeling that, in my 73 years of life, this is quite a common occurrence. It is very difficult to keep balance when you are moving if you do not use your arms, the oldeer you get the worse it becomes.

I agree with your points Ashington46.  Aguero's arm has also come out and it could be reasonably argued that TAA's arm movement was a result of his turning and not to put hand to ball.  As for time for TAA to get his arm out of the way, how long did it take for the ball to travel from Silva's arm to TAA's arm after it was deflected?  I saw it again at full speed and there was little time for reaction.  Still photos or slow-mos can be unrealistic in terms of what a referee can actually see. 

Microscopist, I'm not saying there isn't a case for a penalty but I just don't think it's as clear cut as you are making out.  And before being too critical of Oliver, don't forget he didn't have the angle your shots show. He did dismiss the penalty claim quickly as has been pointed out but we don't know just why. Because he thought it was accidental, or was he not even certain the ball had struck the arm?  And why even introduce conjecture that he didn't take the VAR's advice?  What evidence is there for that?

I agree with your points Ashington46.  Aguero's arm has also come out and it could be reasonably argued that TAA's arm movement was a result of his turning and not to put hand to ball.  As for time for TAA to get his arm out of the way, how long did it take for the ball to travel from Silva's arm to TAA's arm after it was deflected?  I saw it again at full speed and there was little time for reaction.  Still photos or slow-mos can be unrealistic in terms of what a referee can actually see. 

Microscopist, I'm not saying there isn't a case for a penalty but I just don't think it's as clear cut as you are making out.  And before being too critical of Oliver, don't forget he didn't have the angle your shots show. He did dismiss the penalty claim quickly as has been pointed out but we don't know just why. Because he thought it was accidental, or was he not even certain the ball had struck the arm?  And why even introduce conjecture that he didn't take the VAR's advice?  What evidence is there for that?

The VAR official does have the benefit of what can be seen from still photos or slow-mos as can be seen from the extreme close ups on offside decisions.