Author Topic: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove  (Read 1433 times)

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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #15 on: Tue 24 Nov 2020 08:16 »
I hadn't seen the penalty incident until RefWatch this morning.  However, it does seem to fit into the point I have made repeatedly about players 'buying' penalties.  There was perhaps minimal contact but the Aston Villa player, after a brief pause, proceeded to throw himself theatrically to the ground as if picked off by the sniper in the crowd.  I felt that Oliver 'bought' it which is not encouraging from someone at his level.  The replays were inconclusive on the possible faint contact, but acted as a good audition for the British Olympic diving squad.

I was very reassured by Dermot Gallagher saying he didn't think it was a penalty.  He made the very important point that not all contact is a foul/penalty, and that in relation to the Lamptey dismissal, not every foul is a card.  I would have still been happier if the card had been produced for the obvious playacting of the Aston Villa player in a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee to get a late point.

Talking of simulation, we saw an even worse example in the Leeds-Arsenal game.  The Arsenal player was very foolish in confronting the opponent with his head, but the contact was, at worst, minimal and in my view more unsportsmanlike than violent, although he gave the referee a decision to make.  But hey, them's the rules.  What was inexcusable is the reaction of the Leeds player who reacted as if he had been hit with an axe.  Again, a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee which went unpunished.  Until the game gets to grips with this ludicrous simulation there is no hope for it.  (After the red card I switched off in despair!)

Since Peter Walton appears to be the only referee who is asked to make comments during a live match (on BT as I don't think Sky have similar) have you ever heard him point this out to the commentary team or studio pundits when they ask his opinion on various decisions?

Nope!

Readingfan

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #16 on: Tue 24 Nov 2020 13:36 »
I agree with Late Tackle's point - I think far too many match defining penalties are now given for minimal/negligible contact that has no obvious impact on the attacking player (a lot of this is due to attacking players exaggerating such contact of course.)

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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #17 on: Tue 24 Nov 2020 13:46 »
I agree with Late Tackle's point - I think far too many match defining penalties are now given for minimal/negligible contact that has no obvious impact on the attacking player (a lot of this is due to attacking players exaggerating such contact of course.)

But what do we do about it?
We have referees who consistently give free kicks and penalties for this. There is nothing being done to clamp down on diving, nothing being done to clamp down on exaggerating contact (think Alioski, Lamela).

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LateTackle

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #18 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 12:10 »
" What was inexcusable is the reaction of the Leeds player who reacted as if he had been hit with an axe.  Again, a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee which went unpunished.  Until the game gets to grips with this ludicrous simulation there is no hope for it.  "

LateTackle's words are correct.  I'll avoid dodgy analogies and incorrectly quoting Law, but 100% support this.

Video technology is having an "interesting" impact on the game through VAR.  Video technology could eradicate this ludicrous simulation if there was the will to do so. The truth, however, is that if the circumstances had been reversed, the Arsenal player would have done exactly what the Leeds player did do.

Its really up to the teams, players, managers, etc.  Do they want to get it out of the game or not?

This is exactly my point.  What the Leeds player did wasn't just a one-off.  It is endemic throughout the game at top level.  It is clearly required by managers in order to get a minimal advantage, just as is throwing yourself to the floor with minimal contact to win free kicks and penalties.  The game is destroying itself with continual deception of referees. 

But it is actually worse than that.  Taylor would have had to be pretty dumb not to have realised that the Leeds player was playacting, so obvious was the tumble.  In truth Taylor had no choice though.  The people who run the game have created this monster and referees are not allowed to exercise common sense.  My view of the incident was that the Arsenal player was foolish but not violent and would have been shown a yellow card, as would the Leeds player for simulation.  My view is probably down to the fact that when I qualified as a referee I was taught that 'Law 18' is the most important of all. 

I have no idea how the game starts to sort out this destructive culture of deception.  What I do know is that I have lost interest and could never see myself paying to watch a game in the forseeable future, and I know quite a few others who take a similar view.
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Ref Watcher

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #19 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 14:17 »
Taylor would have had to be pretty dumb not to have realised that the Leeds player was playacting, so obvious was the tumble.  In truth Taylor had no choice though.  The people who run the game have created this monster and referees are not allowed to exercise common sense.  My view of the incident was that the Arsenal player was foolish but not violent and would have been shown a yellow card, as would the Leeds player for simulation
Mr Taylor didn't see the incident.  His attention was drawn to it by the VAR.  VARs have no authority to recommend action over yellow card offences, such as simulation, so there was simply no option for Mr Taylor to caution Alioski.  As for the red card:

...a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Alioski may have exaggerated the contact but it is a stretch to say the contact was negligible.  The sanctions taken were correct.
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LateTackle

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #20 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 15:16 »
Taylor would have had to be pretty dumb not to have realised that the Leeds player was playacting, so obvious was the tumble.  In truth Taylor had no choice though.  The people who run the game have created this monster and referees are not allowed to exercise common sense.  My view of the incident was that the Arsenal player was foolish but not violent and would have been shown a yellow card, as would the Leeds player for simulation
Mr Taylor didn't see the incident.  His attention was drawn to it by the VAR.  VARs have no authority to recommend action over yellow card offences, such as simulation, so there was simply no option for Mr Taylor to caution Alioski.  As for the red card:

...a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Alioski may have exaggerated the contact but it is a stretch to say the contact was negligible.  The sanctions taken were correct.
Absolutely disagree, it was a touch, not a headbutt.  Alioski saw his chance and threw himself to the floor.  It would not have floored a 2-year old after 3 bags of Skittles.  Taylor may have missed it live but having seen it he could certainly have decided Alioski was cheating.  As I said, this is why the game stinks.  Cheating is encouraged and rewarded by the system and referees have no way of dealing with it now.
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Ashington46

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #21 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 15:54 »
Taylor would have had to be pretty dumb not to have realised that the Leeds player was playacting, so obvious was the tumble.  In truth Taylor had no choice though.  The people who run the game have created this monster and referees are not allowed to exercise common sense.  My view of the incident was that the Arsenal player was foolish but not violent and would have been shown a yellow card, as would the Leeds player for simulation
Mr Taylor didn't see the incident.  His attention was drawn to it by the VAR.  VARs have no authority to recommend action over yellow card offences, such as simulation, so there was simply no option for Mr Taylor to caution Alioski.  As for the red card:

...a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Alioski may have exaggerated the contact but it is a stretch to say the contact was negligible.  The sanctions taken were correct.
Absolutely disagree, it was a touch, not a headbutt.  Alioski saw his chance and threw himself to the floor.  It would not have floored a 2-year old after 3 bags of Skittles.  Taylor may have missed it live but having seen it he could certainly have decided Alioski was cheating.  As I said, this is why the game stinks.  Cheating is encouraged and rewarded by the system and referees have no way of dealing with it now.

It was a stupid thing to do and Alioski made the most of the opportunity. Both should have been shown a yellow because it was a nothing incident. Having said that, players from both teams were constantly going down when they lost the  ball im the hope that  they could con the officials. 
This is the modern game and this sort of behaviour is being used all the time by clubs at the top level to influence the officials ---it is not a good spectacle to behold and it is getting worse.
Referee's decision used to be final!
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Acme Thunderer

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #22 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 16:24 »
Taylor would have had to be pretty dumb not to have realised that the Leeds player was playacting, so obvious was the tumble.  In truth Taylor had no choice though.  The people who run the game have created this monster and referees are not allowed to exercise common sense.  My view of the incident was that the Arsenal player was foolish but not violent and would have been shown a yellow card, as would the Leeds player for simulation
Mr Taylor didn't see the incident.  His attention was drawn to it by the VAR.  VARs have no authority to recommend action over yellow card offences, such as simulation, so there was simply no option for Mr Taylor to caution Alioski.  As for the red card:

...a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Alioski may have exaggerated the contact but it is a stretch to say the contact was negligible.  The sanctions taken were correct.

I agree, Pepe's head moved towards Alioski, and although Alioski may have exaggerated the contact, there was contact and the red card was appropriate. The lack of protest after the incident was reviewed on the monitor and the red card was shown is relevant.

LateTackle

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #23 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 18:14 »
Taylor would have had to be pretty dumb not to have realised that the Leeds player was playacting, so obvious was the tumble.  In truth Taylor had no choice though.  The people who run the game have created this monster and referees are not allowed to exercise common sense.  My view of the incident was that the Arsenal player was foolish but not violent and would have been shown a yellow card, as would the Leeds player for simulation
Mr Taylor didn't see the incident.  His attention was drawn to it by the VAR.  VARs have no authority to recommend action over yellow card offences, such as simulation, so there was simply no option for Mr Taylor to caution Alioski.  As for the red card:

...a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Alioski may have exaggerated the contact but it is a stretch to say the contact was negligible.  The sanctions taken were correct.

I agree, Pepe's head moved towards Alioski, and although Alioski may have exaggerated the contact, there was contact and the red card was appropriate. The lack of protest after the incident was reviewed on the monitor and the red card was shown is relevant.
This is exactly the point here.  Taylor had no option because the game has degenerated into a complete farce.  The fact that the red card was 'appropriate' is precisely what is wrong with the game.  As Ashington said, it is getting worse.  Teams would rather manufacture free kicks and penalties for the slightest contact as it is their best hope of scoring.  Getting opponents sent off by playacting (as happened here) is just another part of the cheat's charter that the game has become.  I despair, and I want no part of it.
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rustyref

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #24 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 20:38 »
Its a case of actions have consequences.  Yes Alioski milked it, but had Pepe not acted like a complete idiot he wouldn't have been able to.  It has been the case for a long time now that if you take the rutting stag approach and put your head towards an opponent, make contact and it gets seen you will be in big trouble.  To do it in a game with VAR in operation shows an extra special level of stupidity as you are 100% going to get sent off.
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Claretman

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #25 on: Wed 25 Nov 2020 22:30 »
Minimal contact isnt enough to give a foul or penalty as we have seen this weekend but minimal contact is a sending off offence. It would have also been better if the onfield referee had been shown the full shaninigans
Between pepe and alioski rather the last knockings. Pepe was wrong to act as he did, but as is often the case
The provocation and the act of playacting goes unpunished.
One further point wasnt there an incident a couple of years which got a leeds player a retrospective ban
For similar actions to alioski? Is that not a precent set to follow up these actions?
Law 18 certainly went out of the window a long time ago.


Ref Watcher

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #26 on: Thu 26 Nov 2020 11:04 »
One further point wasnt there an incident a couple of years which got a leeds player a retrospective ban
For similar actions to alioski? Is that not a precent set to follow up these actions?
It was Patrick Bamford.  Footage showed him falling to floor clutching his face despite there being no contact from Anwar El Ghazi, who was sent off.  Bamford was banned for 'successful deception of a match official.'  The key is the difference between no contact and contact.
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Claretman

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #27 on: Thu 26 Nov 2020 16:10 »
One further point wasnt there an incident a couple of years which got a leeds player a retrospective ban
For similar actions to alioski? Is that not a precent set to follow up these actions?
It was Patrick Bamford.  Footage showed him falling to floor clutching his face despite there being no contact from Anwar El Ghazi, who was sent off.  Bamford was banned for 'successful deception of a match official.'  The key is the difference between no contact and contact.
Thanks ref watcher, i stand corrected.

Claretman

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #28 on: Thu 26 Nov 2020 16:13 »
I agree with Late Tackle's point - I think far too many match defining penalties are now given for minimal/negligible contact that has no obvious impact on the attacking player (a lot of this is due to attacking players exaggerating such contact of course.)

But what do we do about it?
We have referees who consistently give free kicks and penalties for this. There is nothing being done to clamp down on diving, nothing being done to clamp down on exaggerating contact (think Alioski, Lamela).
Guess its devil and deep blue sea, whilst authorities and referees seem to intimate you have to go down to
Get a foul given against you it will continue. Officials need to penalise for fouls regardless of whether the person fouled goes to ground or stays on their feet.
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