Author Topic: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove  (Read 1433 times)

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adcr85

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M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 09:37 »
I don't mean for this to be an anti-Michael Oliver post, but having watched this game live, and particularly the last 5 minutes I've got to say I was disappointed in his performance.

To me he looked tired, had no energy and just wasn't clear in his decision making.

The first caution for Lamptey for a slide in midfield was correct in law but a bit of a lazy showing of the card.

The second caution was for Lamptey kind of colliding/running into Grealish down the wing, the referee initially indicated advantage, but when the cross was headed clear brought in back for the free kick and gave a second yellow, which I thought was harsh, but again the process jut looked a little lazy and unsure.

For the penalty that immediately followed, I thought the touch on the ball was clear, therefore the decision was whether or not it was a foul for the subsequent touch on the player or not. The referee gives it and is then asked by VAR to review. So I guess as he changed his mind either the referee didn't see the touch on the ball 'live' or hadn't realized how significant it was. (in my opinion whichever decision he had given shouldn't have been overturned) but again having made this decision he walks slowly back onto pitch and gave some confusing hand signals and continued to walk, and it wasn't until he made the ball shape was it clear the decision was overturned.

I know its an accusation that has been labelled at Mr Oliver before, but to me he just looked a little arrogant, and to be honest, like he thought the game was beneath him and he didn't want to be there. I think the more likely scenario is that this was the last few minutes of an up until then quiet game in a very long and busy season for the referee already that started to just unravel towards the end, but to me shows why you have always got to be ready to act

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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #1 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 10:03 »
I agree he looked lethargic and the signal at the end was confusing - did he even do the TV sign. Personally I don’t think was a penalty but was surprised it was overturned.
You know as soon as the referee goes over to the screen a change of decision is going to follow.
I think lamptey’s second yellow was a result of totting up- he could easily have gone for a challenge before that!

Ref Fan

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #2 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:42 »
I can't say I particularly noticed if he looked lethargic although perhaps not at his sharpest.  Still some impressive sprints when the ball moved quickly up-field. 

There are various comments on another thread about the penalty award with several being surprised VAR intervened. I really do think referees would have been under a lot of pressure not to stick with their original decisions if advised to consult the monitor.  It took me 2 or 3 views including the slo-mo to spot the defender touched the ball first but you must have sharper eyes adcr85.  Interesting point ajb95, I don't recall Oliver doing the TV screen sign either before the ball shape indication, which if so was remiss.

If he is feeling mentally or physically tired, he won't thank U.E.F.A. for appointing him to his 3rd CL Group game in the CL, especially if as edy suggests on another thread, he's a replacement.

I don't recall previous comments that Michael Oliver looks arrogant, although I can readily think of one or two referees present and past that can give that impression.  In fact, someone who has met him suggested quite recently on RTR he is a rather restrained individual whereas Anthony Taylor for example is more outgoing. On the  contrary, I would say there has been the odd occasion when I felt his body language could have been a little stronger.  On the matter of yellow cards, I do prefer the action of someone like Atkinson who points clearly at the person being cautioned.

Finally, my initial reaction to the second YC was that he played advantage and didn't instantly recognise it was a player already cautioned.  When he did, he correctly brought play back.  Or as ajb95 mentions, maybe it was the totting-up aspect which might have taken a few seconds to register.

Not one of his best performances, but by no means poor in my view.  There have been a lot worse!
 
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Hertsref123

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #3 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 13:17 »
I think he looked physically tired throughout the game, and not his usual sharp self, and i cant say i blame him, the guy has had at least a game a week throughout the season, and more than that on more than one occasion. Definately time he was given a rest.
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ajb95

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #4 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 15:47 »
I think he looked physically tired throughout the game, and not his usual sharp self, and i cant say i blame him, the guy has had at least a game a week throughout the season, and more than that on more than one occasion. Definately time he was given a rest.

How can he when he gets given a game every week and the same refs are left out every week. Appointments aren’t evenly spread!
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Ref Fan

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #5 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 16:01 »
I suspect it's not just the PL, but all the appointments he's had in Europe for the Nations League and the CL.  He's off to Italy today to referee Lazio tomorrow evening. A totally unnecessary appointment in my view when he was involved in R-1 and R-3.  Taylor was in R-2 and now R-4.  As we know, Taylor seems to be favoured in U.E.F.A circles ('anointed' as one poster suggested), so if Oliver's performances dip, he could well miss out on the Knock-Out stages.
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edy

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #6 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 16:24 »
I suspect it's not just the PL, but all the appointments he's had in Europe for the Nations League and the CL.  He's off to Italy today to referee Lazio tomorrow evening. A totally unnecessary appointment in my view when he was involved in R-1 and R-3.  Taylor was in R-2 and now R-4.  As we know, Taylor seems to be favoured in U.E.F.A circles ('anointed' as one poster suggested), so if Oliver's performances dip, he could well miss out on the Knock-Out stages.

I believe that PL could ease the pressure on Oliver a bit. With the Covid incidents on referees in Europe, UEFA is left with little choices. For example, I believe that Oliver was a replacement on MD4. More likely for Kovacs (who is positive on Covid).

I believe that he should ask only for VAR/FO duties for a couple of weeks.
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Ref Fan

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #7 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 16:34 »
I agree edy, although VAR duties can be fraught with controversy as we well know in the PL.  Mental concentration required but not physical.  As you may have gathered, some (including former referees) are asking why Kavanagh and Bankes felt the Villa & West Brom penalties initially awarded were clear and obvious errors for the referees to check the monitors. 

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #8 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 17:08 »
I suspect it's not just the PL, but all the appointments he's had in Europe for the Nations League and the CL.  He's off to Italy today to referee Lazio tomorrow evening. A totally unnecessary appointment in my view when he was involved in R-1 and R-3.  Taylor was in R-2 and now R-4.  As we know, Taylor seems to be favoured in U.E.F.A circles ('anointed' as one poster suggested), so if Oliver's performances dip, he could well miss out on the Knock-Out stages.

I believe that PL could ease the pressure on Oliver a bit. With the Covid incidents on referees in Europe, UEFA is left with little choices. For example, I believe that Oliver was a replacement on MD4. More likely for Kovacs (who is positive on Covid).


Bognár has only just returned to the Hungarian domestic league after 6 weeks out after post match positive covid tests.  We are struggling to cover our league each week at the moment & we only have 6 games if it's a full schedule for the same reason.  We struggled with just 5 games this week. Vad is long term injured on top of that which isn't helping. Our top league is mostly being covered by our NBII referees - great experience for them mind you! There are a few of our Eastern/Central European domestic leagues with the same struggle.

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Hertsref123

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #9 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 17:14 »
I think he looked physically tired throughout the game, and not his usual sharp self, and i cant say i blame him, the guy has had at least a game a week throughout the season, and more than that on more than one occasion. Definately time he was given a rest.

How can he when he gets given a game every week and the same refs are left out every week. Appointments aren’t evenly spread!

And i agree, if they bothered to spread the appointments out more evenly, this wouldn't become an issue. This game would've been a good game to give to someone like Rob Jones
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TheThingFromLewes

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #10 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 17:39 »
I suspect it's not just the PL, but all the appointments he's had in Europe for the Nations League and the CL.  He's off to Italy today to referee Lazio tomorrow evening. A totally unnecessary appointment in my view when he was involved in R-1 and R-3.  Taylor was in R-2 and now R-4.  As we know, Taylor seems to be favoured in U.E.F.A circles ('anointed' as one poster suggested), so if Oliver's performances dip, he could well miss out on the Knock-Out stages.

I believe that PL could ease the pressure on Oliver a bit. With the Covid incidents on referees in Europe, UEFA is left with little choices. For example, I believe that Oliver was a replacement on MD4. More likely for Kovacs (who is positive on Covid).

I believe that he should ask only for VAR/FO duties for a couple of weeks.

I couldn’t understand why someone like Pawson could have done that game in Italy. He is first group and more than capable.

If UEFA feel that he isn’t capable he shouldn’t  have a FIFA badge IMO.
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LateTackle

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #11 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 18:33 »
I hadn't seen the penalty incident until RefWatch this morning.  However, it does seem to fit into the point I have made repeatedly about players 'buying' penalties.  There was perhaps minimal contact but the Aston Villa player, after a brief pause, proceeded to throw himself theatrically to the ground as if picked off by the sniper in the crowd.  I felt that Oliver 'bought' it which is not encouraging from someone at his level.  The replays were inconclusive on the possible faint contact, but acted as a good audition for the British Olympic diving squad.

I was very reassured by Dermot Gallagher saying he didn't think it was a penalty.  He made the very important point that not all contact is a foul/penalty, and that in relation to the Lamptey dismissal, not every foul is a card.  I would have still been happier if the card had been produced for the obvious playacting of the Aston Villa player in a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee to get a late point.

Talking of simulation, we saw an even worse example in the Leeds-Arsenal game.  The Arsenal player was very foolish in confronting the opponent with his head, but the contact was, at worst, minimal and in my view more unsportsmanlike than violent, although he gave the referee a decision to make.  But hey, them's the rules.  What was inexcusable is the reaction of the Leeds player who reacted as if he had been hit with an axe.  Again, a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee which went unpunished.  Until the game gets to grips with this ludicrous simulation there is no hope for it.  (After the red card I switched off in despair!)
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Leggy

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #12 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 19:14 »
" What was inexcusable is the reaction of the Leeds player who reacted as if he had been hit with an axe.  Again, a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee which went unpunished.  Until the game gets to grips with this ludicrous simulation there is no hope for it.  "

LateTackle's words are correct.  I'll avoid dodgy analogies and incorrectly quoting Law, but 100% support this.

Video technology is having an "interesting" impact on the game through VAR.  Video technology could eradicate this ludicrous simulation if there was the will to do so.  The truth, however, is that if the circumstances had been reversed, the Arsenal player would have done exactly what the Leeds player did do.

Its really up to the teams, players, managers, etc.  Do they want to get it out of the game or not?
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bruntyboy

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #13 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 23:50 »
" What was inexcusable is the reaction of the Leeds player who reacted as if he had been hit with an axe.  Again, a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee which went unpunished.  Until the game gets to grips with this ludicrous simulation there is no hope for it.  "

LateTackle's words are correct.  I'll avoid dodgy analogies and incorrectly quoting Law, but 100% support this.

Video technology is having an "interesting" impact on the game through VAR.  Video technology could eradicate this ludicrous simulation if there was the will to do so.  The truth, however, is that if the circumstances had been reversed, the Arsenal player would have done exactly what the Leeds player did do.

Its really up to the teams, players, managers, etc.  Do they want to get it out of the game or not?

They didn't help themselves when they didn't punish Lamela for his similar playacting against Martial earlier this season. 
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bruntyboy

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Re: M Oliver Aston Villa v Brighton & Hove
« Reply #14 on: Mon 23 Nov 2020 23:56 »
I hadn't seen the penalty incident until RefWatch this morning.  However, it does seem to fit into the point I have made repeatedly about players 'buying' penalties.  There was perhaps minimal contact but the Aston Villa player, after a brief pause, proceeded to throw himself theatrically to the ground as if picked off by the sniper in the crowd.  I felt that Oliver 'bought' it which is not encouraging from someone at his level.  The replays were inconclusive on the possible faint contact, but acted as a good audition for the British Olympic diving squad.

I was very reassured by Dermot Gallagher saying he didn't think it was a penalty.  He made the very important point that not all contact is a foul/penalty, and that in relation to the Lamptey dismissal, not every foul is a card.  I would have still been happier if the card had been produced for the obvious playacting of the Aston Villa player in a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee to get a late point.

Talking of simulation, we saw an even worse example in the Leeds-Arsenal game.  The Arsenal player was very foolish in confronting the opponent with his head, but the contact was, at worst, minimal and in my view more unsportsmanlike than violent, although he gave the referee a decision to make.  But hey, them's the rules.  What was inexcusable is the reaction of the Leeds player who reacted as if he had been hit with an axe.  Again, a deliberate attempt to deceive the referee which went unpunished.  Until the game gets to grips with this ludicrous simulation there is no hope for it.  (After the red card I switched off in despair!)

Since Peter Walton appears to be the only referee who is asked to make comments during a live match (on BT as I don't think Sky have similar) have you ever heard him point this out to the commentary team or studio pundits when they ask his opinion on various decisions?