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Author Topic: Forest v West Ham - R Jones  (Read 2045 times)

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Lionator27

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Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 15:29 »
A couple of talking points so far. I wasn’t too sure about the ‘foul’ by Antonio in the lead up to the disallowed goal. He definitely won the collision but I’m not sure he caused it?

Also surprised not to see McKenna sent off for deliberate handball.

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greeny

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #1 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 15:38 »
The reason given on TV for McKenna not seeing red was that Henderson was going to save the ball anyway.

Michael Salisbury is being given plenty to look at this afternoon - just the 2 disallowed goals and a penalty (albeit 2 of them involving Jones being sent to look at them himself).

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rustyref

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #2 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 16:10 »
It was a foul by Antonio for me, and critically the act stopped the defender who was clearly going to close down the ball from doing so.

I initially expected a red for McKenna, but the replays should that Henderson was right behind it and would clearly have saved, so I would say a caution is just about right.  Without VAR though if that gets given as a penalty it will always be followed as a red as real time you couldn't have the confidence that the keeper would save.
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tef

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #3 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 16:16 »
100% a foul by Antonio. Yellow correct for the handball as Henderson was clearly going to save it (he was immediately behind the defender’s arm) and so it wasn’t “denying a goal”. But it’s a very marginal call and certainty without Replays I’d expect most referees to go red there in real-time
« Last Edit: Sun 14 Aug 2022 16:19 by tef »
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Rhys147

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #4 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 17:27 »
Both VAR interventions were correct. It is clearly a foul by Antonio and i'm surprised Robert Jones missed it live although i guess he thought it was a coming together between both players. It is also a clear handball and the colour of the card is correct as Henderson would probably have saved it given he was right behind the shot.

Leggy

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #5 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 18:53 »
Both VAR interventions were correct. It is clearly a foul by Antonio and i'm surprised Robert Jones missed it live although i guess he thought it was a coming together between both players. It is also a clear handball and the colour of the card is correct as Henderson would probably have saved it given he was right behind the shot.

both VAR interventions were indeed correct.  The critical question is should they have been needed at all.  A SG referee (and two ARs) has got to be seeing both of those offences "live".  I still have the feeling that VAR is making our top referees "timid".

rustyref

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #6 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 18:58 »
Both VAR interventions were correct. It is clearly a foul by Antonio and i'm surprised Robert Jones missed it live although i guess he thought it was a coming together between both players. It is also a clear handball and the colour of the card is correct as Henderson would probably have saved it given he was right behind the shot.

both VAR interventions were indeed correct.  The critical question is should they have been needed at all.  A SG referee (and two ARs) has got to be seeing both of those offences "live".  I still have the feeling that VAR is making our top referees "timid".

Agree on the push, but the handball is very difficult to see real time as his arm was quite close to his body and it all happened very quickly.  I think Rob Jones might have been blocked off, the active AR had no chance as on his blind side, so very easy to see how it was missed real time.

Gorgeous George

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #7 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 22:34 »
Watched this game this afternoon and felt it was a great spectacle for the neutral! Rob Jones and his team let the game flow where possible and tried to deal with excessive time wasting (a gripe of many people on this board over the years!). I counted 3 cautions for delaying the restart of play as well as countless management of said situations trying to speed people up (both sides guilty of this at different points in the game). This created a feisty and physical game played in the right spirit in a great atmosphere (though it did look incredible hot!)!

On the two VAR interventions… is that not exactly why it’s there? The first looks a mutually caused collision in real speed, but slowed down Antonio clearly stops Mangala from pressing out to Rice which allows for the through pass to score. Therefore a really good piece of VAR from Salisbury in my opinion to correct a missed incident that’s difficult to see in real time.

And as for the second, at that speed without a slow motion replay I’m not sure how many people seen the handball offence as there was minimal appeals from players either! Caution also correct sanction as the keeper clearly saves that shot if the defender doesn’t!

A nice step up in exposure for one of the PL’s younger referees and I thought he generally did very well. Promising indeed that the PGMOL seem to be giving the less experienced guys games this season. Long may that continue
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Jackinthebox

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #8 on: Sun 14 Aug 2022 23:00 »
A good game to watch and I thaught the refereeing team had a great game as well.
Correct intervention by Salisbury for the disallowed West Ham goal.
I missed the penalty incident in real time but they got the decison spot on. A question I thaught of is if Rob Jones gave then penalty in real time and sent off Mckenna would the VAR recommend a on field review to turn the RC into a yellow?

Leggy

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #9 on: Mon 15 Aug 2022 08:33 »
Watched this game this afternoon and felt it was a great spectacle for the neutral! Rob Jones and his team let the game flow where possible and tried to deal with excessive time wasting (a gripe of many people on this board over the years!). I counted 3 cautions for delaying the restart of play as well as countless management of said situations trying to speed people up (both sides guilty of this at different points in the game). This created a feisty and physical game played in the right spirit in a great atmosphere (though it did look incredible hot!)!

On the two VAR interventions… is that not exactly why it’s there? The first looks a mutually caused collision in real speed, but slowed down Antonio clearly stops Mangala from pressing out to Rice which allows for the through pass to score. Therefore a really good piece of VAR from Salisbury in my opinion to correct a missed incident that’s difficult to see in real time.

And as for the second, at that speed without a slow motion replay I’m not sure how many people seen the handball offence as there was minimal appeals from players either! Caution also correct sanction as the keeper clearly saves that shot if the defender doesn’t!

A nice step up in exposure for one of the PL’s younger referees and I thought he generally did very well. Promising indeed that the PGMOL seem to be giving the less experienced guys games this season. Long may that continue

There were appeals from players.  Although appeals from players are generally not a good guide, when they are instantaneous and from a number of players, there may be some justification.  I think, Pre-VAR, we would have been disappointed had a referee not spotted the handball in real time.

I know I am like a scratched record, but a wider position would have afforded a better viewing position.

Ref Watcher

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #10 on: Mon 15 Aug 2022 16:11 »
An entertaining game, well refereed by Rob Jones (who, to me, looks to have improved his fitness) and VAR working the way it is supposed to - ensuring that the right decisions were arrived at.  Long may it continue.
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Gorgeous George

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #11 on: Mon 15 Aug 2022 16:36 »
I actually think that his positioning was too far wide on this incident Leggy and that’s probably why he couldn’t see it. He’s on the corner of the box after coming wide for the initial challenge before the cutback!

I also agree with RefWatcher that he looked very mobile yesterday and certainly appears to be taking good care of his training!
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Readingfan

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #12 on: Tue 16 Aug 2022 14:00 »
As a general point, it is an interesting hypothetical question as to what impact the likelihood of a goalkeeper making a save should have.

Of course there have been many cases where a goalkeeper has failed to make a save they would have been expected to do so - De Gea on Saturday seems to have been the latest example. And we have all seen many instances where a defender is sent off before any shot on target has even been forthcoming.

If say you were 50/50 as to whether or not the goalkeeper might have made a save, would you lean towards red or yellow?

Leggy

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #13 on: Tue 16 Aug 2022 15:17 »
As a general point, it is an interesting hypothetical question as to what impact the likelihood of a goalkeeper making a save should have.

Of course there have been many cases where a goalkeeper has failed to make a save they would have been expected to do so - De Gea on Saturday seems to have been the latest example. And we have all seen many instances where a defender is sent off before any shot on target has even been forthcoming.

If say you were 50/50 as to whether or not the goalkeeper might have made a save, would you lean towards red or yellow?


50/50 - for me - does not meet the threshold of an "obvious" goal-scoring opportunity.

Mikael W

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Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
« Reply #14 on: Tue 16 Aug 2022 21:20 »
I think, Pre-VAR, we would have been disappointed had a referee not spotted the handball in real time.

Pre-VAR, it would have been an absolute scandal if this was missed!(!!!) Just imagine. Extremely poor miss by Jones.

I really think people are not seeing the wood for the trees in the SPA vs. DOGSO debate also. A defender has, in the six-yard box, made a goalkeeper-like save to try and stop a goal - sorry, but this simply has to be a red card. Other defenders would have taken note: why the heck wouldn't you do the same in another game if the punishment is only going to be a caution, it is a good bet. Sorry but it is just madness to me that a yellow card is even being entertained here...

What you permit, you promote.
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