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Author Topic: FA defends use of VAR at only nine of 32 third-round FA Cup ties  (Read 2249 times)

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bmb

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Contrary to what many people seem to think, the FA Cup does not start in January. It started back on Friday 6th August at a handful of lowly non-league grounds. Even moving forward 3 months to the start of the Competition proper, this started at Sudbury's modest, but well equipped for their level, ground with their 3G pitch. It is unrealistic to expect all rounds to be treated the same (unless that means no VAR whatsoever).
As for treating all matches in the same round, the same   ....... why?  Fairness is both teams being treated the same in each game. It seems perverse to not use something which is designed to improve fairness, as much as possible.

(The fact that some of the decisions made by VAR are staggeringly inept anyway is a completely different issue.)

Exactly. ‘Fairness’ comes in many types. VAR existing in one cup game and not another - is not hugely different that a FIFA Elite referee officiating one game, and a L2 official at another. There’s no sporting integrity issue here. Each team has precisely 50% chance of any incorrect decision being to their detriment or advantage in a VAR game, just as much as it does in any other.

I don't agree with that in terms of the difference between an elite referee and L2 referee being down to human element. They are both level 1 referees, one may be more experienced and officiate at a higher level than the other but they are both prone to the same human fallacies as each other.  They both have the same chance of having a great game or not. Adding in technology to assist one and not the other takes away the human element & gives an unfair advantage, imo.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Affy_Moose

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Contrary to what many people seem to think, the FA Cup does not start in January. It started back on Friday 6th August at a handful of lowly non-league grounds. Even moving forward 3 months to the start of the Competition proper, this started at Sudbury's modest, but well equipped for their level, ground with their 3G pitch. It is unrealistic to expect all rounds to be treated the same (unless that means no VAR whatsoever).
As for treating all matches in the same round, the same   ....... why?  Fairness is both teams being treated the same in each game. It seems perverse to not use something which is designed to improve fairness, as much as possible.

(The fact that some of the decisions made by VAR are staggeringly inept anyway is a completely different issue.)

Exactly. ‘Fairness’ comes in many types. VAR existing in one cup game and not another - is not hugely different that a FIFA Elite referee officiating one game, and a L2 official at another. There’s no sporting integrity issue here. Each team has precisely 50% chance of any incorrect decision being to their detriment or advantage in a VAR game, just as much as it does in any other.

I don't agree with that in terms of the difference between an elite referee and L2 referee being down to human element. They are both level 1 referees, one may be more experienced and officiate at a higher level than the other but they are both prone to the same human fallacies as each other.  They both have the same chance of having a great game or not. Adding in technology to assist one and not the other takes away the human element & gives an unfair advantage, imo.

What advantage? That’s the the aspect that doesn’t figure. Advantage is relative. VAR changes absolutely nothing about the game. Both teams have exactly the same benefits and/or detractions.

It might feel ‘wrong’ and there’s some argument around consistency, but there’s no advantage whatsoever.
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Whistleblower

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Contrary to what many people seem to think, the FA Cup does not start in January. It started back on Friday 6th August at a handful of lowly non-league grounds. Even moving forward 3 months to the start of the Competition proper, this started at Sudbury's modest, but well equipped for their level, ground with their 3G pitch. It is unrealistic to expect all rounds to be treated the same (unless that means no VAR whatsoever).
As for treating all matches in the same round, the same   ....... why?  Fairness is both teams being treated the same in each game. It seems perverse to not use something which is designed to improve fairness, as much as possible.

(The fact that some of the decisions made by VAR are staggeringly inept anyway is a completely different issue.)

Exactly. ‘Fairness’ comes in many types. VAR existing in one cup game and not another - is not hugely different that a FIFA Elite referee officiating one game, and a L2 official at another. There’s no sporting integrity issue here. Each team has precisely 50% chance of any incorrect decision being to their detriment or advantage in a VAR game, just as much as it does in any other.

I don't agree with that in terms of the difference between an elite referee and L2 referee being down to human element. They are both level 1 referees, one may be more experienced and officiate at a higher level than the other but they are both prone to the same human fallacies as each other.  They both have the same chance of having a great game or not. Adding in technology to assist one and not the other takes away the human element & gives an unfair advantage, imo.

What advantage? That’s the the aspect that doesn’t figure. Advantage is relative. VAR changes absolutely nothing about the game. Both teams have exactly the same benefits and/or detractions.

It might feel ‘wrong’ and there’s some argument around consistency, but there’s no advantage whatsoever.


Being perhaps not the greatest logician in the world I am seeking to follow your argument but struggling somewhat. Please could you explain what is meant by " Advantage is relative " and also " VAR changes absolutely nothing " when to me it changes a great deal because it employs a different way of officiating. Of course the two teams in a VAR match have an equality of adjudication but I cannot see how that equality of adjudication is shared with teams in non VAR matches because the latter has far less scrutiny in decision  making than the former.
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Whistleblower

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If VAR produces no greater accuracy of outcome in decision making then it might well be said to hold no advantage over non VAR but if greater scrutiny does result in fairer more accurate officiating then surely that is advantageous to those teams playing with VAR
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Affy_Moose

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Contrary to what many people seem to think, the FA Cup does not start in January. It started back on Friday 6th August at a handful of lowly non-league grounds. Even moving forward 3 months to the start of the Competition proper, this started at Sudbury's modest, but well equipped for their level, ground with their 3G pitch. It is unrealistic to expect all rounds to be treated the same (unless that means no VAR whatsoever).
As for treating all matches in the same round, the same   ....... why?  Fairness is both teams being treated the same in each game. It seems perverse to not use something which is designed to improve fairness, as much as possible.

(The fact that some of the decisions made by VAR are staggeringly inept anyway is a completely different issue.)

Exactly. ‘Fairness’ comes in many types. VAR existing in one cup game and not another - is not hugely different that a FIFA Elite referee officiating one game, and a L2 official at another. There’s no sporting integrity issue here. Each team has precisely 50% chance of any incorrect decision being to their detriment or advantage in a VAR game, just as much as it does in any other.

I don't agree with that in terms of the difference between an elite referee and L2 referee being down to human element. They are both level 1 referees, one may be more experienced and officiate at a higher level than the other but they are both prone to the same human fallacies as each other.  They both have the same chance of having a great game or not. Adding in technology to assist one and not the other takes away the human element & gives an unfair advantage, imo.

What advantage? That’s the the aspect that doesn’t figure. Advantage is relative. VAR changes absolutely nothing about the game. Both teams have exactly the same benefits and/or detractions.

It might feel ‘wrong’ and there’s some argument around consistency, but there’s no advantage whatsoever.


Being perhaps not the greatest logician in the world I am seeking to follow your argument but struggling somewhat. Please could you explain what is meant by " Advantage is relative " and also " VAR changes absolutely nothing " when to me it changes a great deal because it employs a different way of officiating. Of course the two teams in a VAR match have an equality of adjudication but I cannot see how that equality of adjudication is shared with teams in non VAR matches because the latter has far less scrutiny in decision  making than the former.

It is relative because it means to gain over another.

Whether VAR benefits a team in a game isn’t the point. In order for it to be an ‘advantage’ then the the gain has to be made prior to the match starting. The teams in match 1 of Team A v Team B (with VAR) have no advantage or loss versus teams in match 2 Team C v Team D (without VAR).

That VAR may benefit a team is neither here nor there. In that regard it’s no different than a game with a 4O versus a game without one - which happens in cup matches in many countries.

The only scenario where a real and problematic advantage can exist is if the team winning in match 1 has an observable and distinct benefit versus the team winning match 2. There isn’t, so beyond consistency there is no advantage problem.

Real-world ‘advantage’ exists with match timings, seedings, and the likes of World Cup qualifying where 6-team groups had the same rules on suspensions going into playoffs as 5-team groups. Those are ‘real’ because the advantage is known and measurable prior to the match.
« Last Edit: Sun 16 Jan 2022 20:13 by Affy_Moose »

Affy_Moose

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Perhaps, I could add - the advantage you describe can only be a problem if it is known and measurable before the match starts.

If so, out of my scenario above, is it an advantage to be Team A/B or Team C/D?

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An interesting comparison between the words benefit and advantage

Readingfan

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So in the Fourth Round Crystal Palace V Hartlepool will have VAR and Nottingham Forest V Leicester won't.

Which teams have the advantage and why, and what impact does this have on the other games?
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Claretman

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If you use var in a game it has more officials contributing to decision making therefore the game is played under different rules, you should not have different rules for different teams within the same round of the same competition.
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rustyref

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I keep coming back to this, but there has been a discrepancy for years as some grounds in FA Cup games have GLT and others don't.  Really struggling to see how VAR is any different.
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Affy_Moose

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If you use var in a game it has more officials contributing to decision making therefore the game is played under different rules, you should not have different rules for different teams within the same round of the same competition.

That’s not an unreasonable position, but it doesn’t have anything to do with fairness or benefit/advantage.

Again, no 4O in early stages of the FA Cup. In Scotland there aren’t 4O below the Premiership but there are if a match is televised. It doesn’t affect anything outwith those specific fixtures.

The point being, unless anyone can answer the question I posed, and noted above by @whistleblower we can remove ‘advantage’ (and any other synonyms) from the conversation.

EDIT: Should have been @ReadingFan.  No other edit beyond grammar was included
« Last Edit: Mon 17 Jan 2022 09:46 by Affy_Moose »

Whistleblower

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If you use var in a game it has more officials contributing to decision making therefore the game is played under different rules, you should not have different rules for different teams within the same round of the same competition.

That’s not an unreasonable position, but it doesn’t have anything to do with fairness or benefit/advantage.

Again, no 4O in early stages of the FA Cup. In Scotland there aren’t 4O below the Premiership but there are if a match is televised. It doesn’t affect anything outwith those specific fixtures.

The point being, unless anyone can answer the question I posed, and noted above by @whistleblower we can remove ‘advantage’ (and any other synonyms) from the conversation.


Another point being that when assertions are defined as cast iron truths and conversations are edited by word removal, then the time has come for me, at least, to bow out of the debate which, if anyone is so minded, they can therefore claim as a victory. I have my own, fairly well developed I hope, understanding of what does and doesn't constitute fairness and integral to that is equity and to belief I shall hold.
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bmb

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I keep coming back to this, but there has been a discrepancy for years as some grounds in FA Cup games have GLT and others don't.  Really struggling to see how VAR is any different.

I guess because GLT is a fixed system determining only if the ball has crossed the line or not between the goal posts. It is to safeguard against a very rare occurrence of none of the officials being able to determine if the ball has crossed the line or not. It is merely a confirmation of a fact. It does not determine for example if the goal was legal or not, it does not trigger a review for offside/fouls that can render a goal being disallowed. Introduced after Vad II István's dreadful error at the 2012 Euros - I'm not still bitter! I'm sure Northampton v Forest Green would have benefited from it at the weekend but the number of times it is actually required is very low.

VAR on the other hand can intervene for a clear and obvious mistake in four match-changing situations:

1: goals and offences leading up to a goal,
2: penalty decisions and offences leading up to a penalty,
3: direct red card incidents, and
4: mistaken identity.

Theoretically at least incorrect penalties/red cards would be corrected (either given or not as appropriate), offside goals not given, goals scored after a foul/handball disallowed. It's a huge difference in the way the game is refereed and the safeguards in place compared to a game without it. I get that if game A has VAR and game B doesn't that both teams in each match are getting the same refereeing as their opponent but the 2 teams in game B are not getting the same as the 2 teams in game A because incorrect decisions in game B will stand unlike in Game A where they will be corrected*. That factor for me is what makes it unfair and stops all teams from having the same level playing field.


*Yes VAR can make mistakes as well as the on-field referee, they are but mere humans and you will never eradicate human error, they do however have a significantly higher chance of getting the call right as they will have access to x different camera angles, slow mo, freeze frame etc as opposed to the on-field referee who gets a split second, singular view of an incident to make their call.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Readingfan

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I keep coming back to this, but there has been a discrepancy for years as some grounds in FA Cup games have GLT and others don't.  Really struggling to see how VAR is any different.

I guess because GLT is a fixed system determining only if the ball has crossed the line or not between the goal posts. It is to safeguard against a very rare occurrence of none of the officials being able to determine if the ball has crossed the line or not. It is merely a confirmation of a fact. It does not determine for example if the goal was legal or not, it does not trigger a review for offside/fouls that can render a goal being disallowed. Introduced after Vad II István's dreadful error at the 2012 Euros - I'm not still bitter! I'm sure Northampton v Forest Green would have benefited from it at the weekend but the number of times it is actually required is very low.

VAR on the other hand can intervene for a clear and obvious mistake in four match-changing situations:

1: goals and offences leading up to a goal,
2: penalty decisions and offences leading up to a penalty,
3: direct red card incidents, and
4: mistaken identity.

Theoretically at least incorrect penalties/red cards would be corrected (either given or not as appropriate), offside goals not given, goals scored after a foul/handball disallowed. It's a huge difference in the way the game is refereed and the safeguards in place compared to a game without it. I get that if game A has VAR and game B doesn't that both teams in each match are getting the same refereeing as their opponent but the 2 teams in game B are not getting the same as the 2 teams in game A because incorrect decisions in game B will stand unlike in Game A where they will be corrected*. That factor for me is what makes it unfair and stops all teams from having the same level playing field.


*Yes VAR can make mistakes as well as the on-field referee, they are but mere humans and you will never eradicate human error, they do however have a significantly higher chance of getting the call right as they will have access to x different camera angles, slow mo, freeze frame etc as opposed to the on-field referee who gets a split second, singular view of an incident to make their call.

But how much of an impact does Game B really have on Game A or vice versa? It's not like a league season where every game changes the table.

And quite often you might not have any major incorrect decisions in Game B so VAR wouldn't have been needed anyway. I'd guess VAR will be used in around half the fourth round ties. It's not as if VAR is used to correct decisions in every single game. You might only have three games in the fourth round with major incorrect decisions so if they all happen to occur in VAR games then you have the opportunity to correct them.

I understand GLT will be used less than VAR generally but it's still basically the same premise.
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rustyref

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I keep coming back to this, but there has been a discrepancy for years as some grounds in FA Cup games have GLT and others don't.  Really struggling to see how VAR is any different.

I guess because GLT is a fixed system determining only if the ball has crossed the line or not between the goal posts. It is to safeguard against a very rare occurrence of none of the officials being able to determine if the ball has crossed the line or not. It is merely a confirmation of a fact. It does not determine for example if the goal was legal or not, it does not trigger a review for offside/fouls that can render a goal being disallowed. Introduced after Vad II István's dreadful error at the 2012 Euros - I'm not still bitter! I'm sure Northampton v Forest Green would have benefited from it at the weekend but the number of times it is actually required is very low.

VAR on the other hand can intervene for a clear and obvious mistake in four match-changing situations:

1: goals and offences leading up to a goal,
2: penalty decisions and offences leading up to a penalty,
3: direct red card incidents, and
4: mistaken identity.

Theoretically at least incorrect penalties/red cards would be corrected (either given or not as appropriate), offside goals not given, goals scored after a foul/handball disallowed. It's a huge difference in the way the game is refereed and the safeguards in place compared to a game without it. I get that if game A has VAR and game B doesn't that both teams in each match are getting the same refereeing as their opponent but the 2 teams in game B are not getting the same as the 2 teams in game A because incorrect decisions in game B will stand unlike in Game A where they will be corrected*. That factor for me is what makes it unfair and stops all teams from having the same level playing field.


*Yes VAR can make mistakes as well as the on-field referee, they are but mere humans and you will never eradicate human error, they do however have a significantly higher chance of getting the call right as they will have access to x different camera angles, slow mo, freeze frame etc as opposed to the on-field referee who gets a split second, singular view of an incident to make their call.

But how much of an impact does Game B really have on Game A or vice versa? It's not like a league season where every game changes the table.

And quite often you might not have any major incorrect decisions in Game B so VAR wouldn't have been needed anyway. I'd guess VAR will be used in around half the fourth round ties. It's not as if VAR is used to correct decisions in every single game. You might only have three games in the fourth round with major incorrect decisions so if they all happen to occur in VAR games then you have the opportunity to correct them.

I understand GLT will be used less than VAR generally but it's still basically the same premise.

That is exactly my point.  It would be fundamentally wrong to use it in some league games but not others in the same decision as that could clearly unfairly adjust end of season league positions.  But an FA Cup game only affects the two teams taking part in each tie, it doesn't affect any other tie which may or may not be using VAR.

Ultimately VAR can't be used in every round.  Even if you said from the 3rd round onwards, too many grounds won't be equipped for VAR, there won't be enough space at Stockley Park for the required number of consecutive games, and there won't be enough officials available.  So you are left with two choices: no VAR until the semi-finals when it is guaranteed the venue being used has VAR capabilities, or use it when a PL team is at home.  For me the latter is the rest option, and I suspect opinions might change if the former was used and there was an absolute clanger in a quarter final that resulted in a team being unfairly eliminated, even more so if that was a lower division team affected.
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