RateTheRef

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 17 Jan 2022 15:08

Quote from: bmb on Mon 17 Jan 2022 14:45

Quote from: rustyref on Sun 16 Jan 2022 23:21

I keep coming back to this, but there has been a discrepancy for years as some grounds in FA Cup games have GLT and others don't.  Really struggling to see how VAR is any different.

I guess because GLT is a fixed system determining only if the ball has crossed the line or not between the goal posts. It is to safeguard against a very rare occurrence of none of the officials being able to determine if the ball has crossed the line or not. It is merely a confirmation of a fact. It does not determine for example if the goal was legal or not, it does not trigger a review for offside/fouls that can render a goal being disallowed. Introduced after Vad II István's dreadful error at the 2012 Euros - I'm not still bitter! I'm sure Northampton v Forest Green would have benefited from it at the weekend but the number of times it is actually required is very low.

VAR on the other hand can intervene for a clear and obvious mistake in four match-changing situations:

1: goals and offences leading up to a goal,
2: penalty decisions and offences leading up to a penalty,
3: direct red card incidents, and
4: mistaken identity.

Theoretically at least incorrect penalties/red cards would be corrected (either given or not as appropriate), offside goals not given, goals scored after a foul/handball disallowed. It's a huge difference in the way the game is refereed and the safeguards in place compared to a game without it. I get that if game A has VAR and game B doesn't that both teams in each match are getting the same refereeing as their opponent but the 2 teams in game B are not getting the same as the 2 teams in game A because incorrect decisions in game B will stand unlike in Game A where they will be corrected*. That factor for me is what makes it unfair and stops all teams from having the same level playing field.


*Yes VAR can make mistakes as well as the on-field referee, they are but mere humans and you will never eradicate human error, they do however have a significantly higher chance of getting the call right as they will have access to x different camera angles, slow mo, freeze frame etc as opposed to the on-field referee who gets a split second, singular view of an incident to make their call.

But how much of an impact does Game B really have on Game A or vice versa? It's not like a league season where every game changes the table.

And quite often you might not have any major incorrect decisions in Game B so VAR wouldn't have been needed anyway. I'd guess VAR will be used in around half the fourth round ties. It's not as if VAR is used to correct decisions in every single game. You might only have three games in the fourth round with major incorrect decisions so if they all happen to occur in VAR games then you have the opportunity to correct them.

I understand GLT will be used less than VAR generally but it's still basically the same premise.

That is exactly my point.  It would be fundamentally wrong to use it in some league games but not others in the same decision as that could clearly unfairly adjust end of season league positions.  But an FA Cup game only affects the two teams taking part in each tie, it doesn't affect any other tie which may or may not be using VAR.

Ultimately VAR can't be used in every round.  Even if you said from the 3rd round onwards, too many grounds won't be equipped for VAR, there won't be enough space at Stockley Park for the required number of consecutive games, and there won't be enough officials available.  So you are left with two choices: no VAR until the semi-finals when it is guaranteed the venue being used has VAR capabilities, or use it when a PL team is at home.  For me the latter is the rest option, and I suspect opinions might change if the former was used and there was an absolute clanger in a quarter final that resulted in a team being unfairly eliminated, even more so if that was a lower division team affected.

Quote from: rustyref on Mon 17 Jan 2022 15:31

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 17 Jan 2022 15:08

Quote from: bmb on Mon 17 Jan 2022 14:45

Quote from: rustyref on Sun 16 Jan 2022 23:21

I keep coming back to this, but there has been a discrepancy for years as some grounds in FA Cup games have GLT and others don't.  Really struggling to see how VAR is any different.

I guess because GLT is a fixed system determining only if the ball has crossed the line or not between the goal posts. It is to safeguard against a very rare occurrence of none of the officials being able to determine if the ball has crossed the line or not. It is merely a confirmation of a fact. It does not determine for example if the goal was legal or not, it does not trigger a review for offside/fouls that can render a goal being disallowed. Introduced after Vad II István's dreadful error at the 2012 Euros - I'm not still bitter! I'm sure Northampton v Forest Green would have benefited from it at the weekend but the number of times it is actually required is very low.

VAR on the other hand can intervene for a clear and obvious mistake in four match-changing situations:

1: goals and offences leading up to a goal,
2: penalty decisions and offences leading up to a penalty,
3: direct red card incidents, and
4: mistaken identity.

Theoretically at least incorrect penalties/red cards would be corrected (either given or not as appropriate), offside goals not given, goals scored after a foul/handball disallowed. It's a huge difference in the way the game is refereed and the safeguards in place compared to a game without it. I get that if game A has VAR and game B doesn't that both teams in each match are getting the same refereeing as their opponent but the 2 teams in game B are not getting the same as the 2 teams in game A because incorrect decisions in game B will stand unlike in Game A where they will be corrected*. That factor for me is what makes it unfair and stops all teams from having the same level playing field.


*Yes VAR can make mistakes as well as the on-field referee, they are but mere humans and you will never eradicate human error, they do however have a significantly higher chance of getting the call right as they will have access to x different camera angles, slow mo, freeze frame etc as opposed to the on-field referee who gets a split second, singular view of an incident to make their call.

But how much of an impact does Game B really have on Game A or vice versa? It's not like a league season where every game changes the table.

And quite often you might not have any major incorrect decisions in Game B so VAR wouldn't have been needed anyway. I'd guess VAR will be used in around half the fourth round ties. It's not as if VAR is used to correct decisions in every single game. You might only have three games in the fourth round with major incorrect decisions so if they all happen to occur in VAR games then you have the opportunity to correct them.

I understand GLT will be used less than VAR generally but it's still basically the same premise.

That is exactly my point.  It would be fundamentally wrong to use it in some league games but not others in the same decision as that could clearly unfairly adjust end of season league positions.  But an FA Cup game only affects the two teams taking part in each tie, it doesn't affect any other tie which may or may not be using VAR.

Ultimately VAR can't be used in every round.  Even if you said from the 3rd round onwards, too many grounds won't be equipped for VAR, there won't be enough space at Stockley Park for the required number of consecutive games, and there won't be enough officials available.  So you are left with two choices: no VAR until the semi-finals when it is guaranteed the venue being used has VAR capabilities, or use it when a PL team is at home.  For me the latter is the rest option, and I suspect opinions might change if the former was used and there was an absolute clanger in a quarter final that resulted in a team being unfairly eliminated, even more so if that was a lower division team affected.

By that I assume you are ok with a team being unjustly eliminated from a cup competition as it doesn't affect other teams?

For me it's the former, maybe no VAR until the quarter finals as opposed to the semi finals onwards. That way all teams have the same chance to advance, fairly or otherwise, or be eliminated, unjustly or otherwise, prior to the business end of the competition.

Quote from: rustyref on Mon 17 Jan 2022 15:31

Quote from: Readingfan on Mon 17 Jan 2022 15:08

Quote from: bmb on Mon 17 Jan 2022 14:45

Quote from: rustyref on Sun 16 Jan 2022 23:21

I keep coming back to this, but there has been a discrepancy for years as some grounds in FA Cup games have GLT and others don't.  Really struggling to see how VAR is any different.

I guess because GLT is a fixed system determining only if the ball has crossed the line or not between the goal posts. It is to safeguard against a very rare occurrence of none of the officials being able to determine if the ball has crossed the line or not. It is merely a confirmation of a fact. It does not determine for example if the goal was legal or not, it does not trigger a review for offside/fouls that can render a goal being disallowed. Introduced after Vad II István's dreadful error at the 2012 Euros - I'm not still bitter! I'm sure Northampton v Forest Green would have benefited from it at the weekend but the number of times it is actually required is very low.

VAR on the other hand can intervene for a clear and obvious mistake in four match-changing situations:

1: goals and offences leading up to a goal,
2: penalty decisions and offences leading up to a penalty,
3: direct red card incidents, and
4: mistaken identity.

Theoretically at least incorrect penalties/red cards would be corrected (either given or not as appropriate), offside goals not given, goals scored after a foul/handball disallowed. It's a huge difference in the way the game is refereed and the safeguards in place compared to a game without it. I get that if game A has VAR and game B doesn't that both teams in each match are getting the same refereeing as their opponent but the 2 teams in game B are not getting the same as the 2 teams in game A because incorrect decisions in game B will stand unlike in Game A where they will be corrected*. That factor for me is what makes it unfair and stops all teams from having the same level playing field.


*Yes VAR can make mistakes as well as the on-field referee, they are but mere humans and you will never eradicate human error, they do however have a significantly higher chance of getting the call right as they will have access to x different camera angles, slow mo, freeze frame etc as opposed to the on-field referee who gets a split second, singular view of an incident to make their call.

But how much of an impact does Game B really have on Game A or vice versa? It's not like a league season where every game changes the table.

And quite often you might not have any major incorrect decisions in Game B so VAR wouldn't have been needed anyway. I'd guess VAR will be used in around half the fourth round ties. It's not as if VAR is used to correct decisions in every single game. You might only have three games in the fourth round with major incorrect decisions so if they all happen to occur in VAR games then you have the opportunity to correct them.

I understand GLT will be used less than VAR generally but it's still basically the same premise.

That is exactly my point.  It would be fundamentally wrong to use it in some league games but not others in the same decision as that could clearly unfairly adjust end of season league positions.  But an FA Cup game only affects the two teams taking part in each tie, it doesn't affect any other tie which may or may not be using VAR.

Ultimately VAR can't be used in every round.  Even if you said from the 3rd round onwards, too many grounds won't be equipped for VAR, there won't be enough space at Stockley Park for the required number of consecutive games, and there won't be enough officials available.  So you are left with two choices: no VAR until the semi-finals when it is guaranteed the venue being used has VAR capabilities, or use it when a PL team is at home.  For me the latter is the rest option, and I suspect opinions might change if the former was used and there was an absolute clanger in a quarter final that resulted in a team being unfairly eliminated, even more so if that was a lower division team affected.

By that I assume you are ok with a team being unjustly eliminated from a cup competition as it doesn't affect other teams?

For me it's the former, maybe no VAR until the quarter finals as opposed to the semi finals onwards. That way all teams have the same chance to advance, fairly or otherwise, or be eliminated, unjustly or otherwise, prior to the business end of the competition.