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Author Topic: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var  (Read 1772 times)

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Ref Watcher

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #15 on: Mon 30 May 2022 12:10 »
Quote from: edy on Sun 29 May 2022 22:08
IMO both are penalties. Honestly, I can't undestand the non-intervention especially at the first scene. No way this is simulation since the attacker fells because of the contact.

Second scene is more on the 70-30 area but still a penalty.
With the first incident there was simulation in the sense that Toffolo exaggerated his fall.  Still a penalty in my opinion but the exaggeration probably cost him.  A more natural fall is more likely to have convinced the officials.

I would go much higher than 70% for the second incident.
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jacksamuel21

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #16 on: Mon 30 May 2022 14:01 »
Quote from: Leggy on Mon 30 May 2022 10:53
On the first one, even the Sky "expert" said that it was the sort of decision that would not have been overturned by VAR had it been a penalty or no penalty.  Its good that they are now recognising that these sort of decisions now exist in football. 

Cricket has "Umpire's call" because it is not always possible to tell for certain and for the TV Umpire to make the decision would result in the TV Umpire "re-umpiring" the game.  Likewise, there will be similar decisions in football where it has been stated that it is not the intention of the VAR to "re-referee" the game.

Many people thought that VAR would remove doubt in all cases.  This is only possible in matters of fact (offside position, ball in/out of play).  Those people are now disappointed, but will need to get used to the football equivalent of "Umpire's call".

The second one, however, looks more clear cut.  John Moss was unsighted and VAR should have helped by advising that he take a look at the monitor - you would have liked to think that, having done so, he would have awarded a penalty.  Because that is what is was.

Umpires call in cricket is there due to the tech not being 100% reliable rather than to prevent re-umpiring the game.
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Deanspen

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #17 on: Mon 30 May 2022 16:20 »
Second incident referred to looked definitely like a penalty to me. Can’t understand why it wasn’t looked at. Might have had a very significant impact on the outcome.
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bruntyboy

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #18 on: Mon 30 May 2022 18:14 »
Quote from: Leggy on Mon 30 May 2022 10:53
On the first one, even the Sky "expert" said that it was the sort of decision that would not have been overturned by VAR had it been a penalty or no penalty.  Its good that they are now recognising that these sort of decisions now exist in football. 

Cricket has "Umpire's call" because it is not always possible to tell for certain and for the TV Umpire to make the decision would result in the TV Umpire "re-umpiring" the game.  Likewise, there will be similar decisions in football where it has been stated that it is not the intention of the VAR to "re-referee" the game.

Many people thought that VAR would remove doubt in all cases.  This is only possible in matters of fact (offside position, ball in/out of play).  Those people are now disappointed, but will need to get used to the football equivalent of "Umpire's call".

The second one, however, looks more clear cut.  John Moss was unsighted and VAR should have helped by advising that he take a look at the monitor - you would have liked to think that, having done so, he would have awarded a penalty.  Because that is what is was.

Offside position is obviously not a matter of fact but a matter of opinion in certain instances (following the 3rd goal not overturned in the recent Arsenal v Manchester United game).
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Leggy

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #19 on: Mon 30 May 2022 18:43 »
Quote from: bruntyboy on Mon 30 May 2022 18:14
Quote from: Leggy on Mon 30 May 2022 10:53
On the first one, even the Sky "expert" said that it was the sort of decision that would not have been overturned by VAR had it been a penalty or no penalty.  Its good that they are now recognising that these sort of decisions now exist in football. 

Cricket has "Umpire's call" because it is not always possible to tell for certain and for the TV Umpire to make the decision would result in the TV Umpire "re-umpiring" the game.  Likewise, there will be similar decisions in football where it has been stated that it is not the intention of the VAR to "re-referee" the game.

Many people thought that VAR would remove doubt in all cases.  This is only possible in matters of fact (offside position, ball in/out of play).  Those people are now disappointed, but will need to get used to the football equivalent of "Umpire's call".


The second one, however, looks more clear cut.  John Moss was unsighted and VAR should have helped by advising that he take a look at the monitor - you would have liked to think that, having done so, he would have awarded a penalty.  Because that is what is was.

Offside position is obviously not a matter of fact but a matter of opinion in certain instances (following the 3rd goal not overturned in the recent Arsenal v Manchester United game).

Apologies - I may been unclear, offside position I believe to be a matter of fact as it relates to the relative positions of the players and the ball when it was last played.  Offside offence, however, is now very much a matter of opinion - and one that get more complex by the year.
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PDMat Shav

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #20 on: Mon 30 May 2022 19:32 »
I think Jon Moss has been very fortunate to referee in the Premier League he never looks convincing when i have seen him, and after Yesterdays performance i think to retire is a wise move.

 Yes one could say Paul Tierney let him down with regards the second penalty, but that sums him up, Paul has had a disappointing season yet Mr Riley still appointed him to a lot of important games whether at the top or bottom of the league and he made some very poor decisions on numerous occasions.

Lets hope he has a good break and comes back refreshed and up to the expected standard next season
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Whistleblower

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #21 on: Mon 30 May 2022 19:42 »
Some quotes from Henry Winter ( for my money one of the very best football writers ) in today's Times about the Play Off Final

" The decision to give Jon Moss the Final on his farewell was always questionable. This is too big a game for a sentimental gesture "

" The decision was reviewed by VAR Paul Tierney but he decided against intervention. Ridiculous. "

" What is the point of VAR  if not to pick up mistakes of an official on his way out ?"


Winter is pretty excoriating about the competence of Moss and Tierney. Will Mike Riley take any share of the blame ?  I doubt it; I'm sure he thought it was a 'work event'
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TheThingFromLewes

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #22 on: Mon 30 May 2022 20:24 »
Has Marriner had a EFL championship play off final? He should have had this match.
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aaa

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #23 on: Mon 30 May 2022 20:47 »
Quote from: TheThingFromLewes on Mon 30 May 2022 20:24
Has Marriner had a EFL championship play off final? He should have had this match.

Thanks to google, he refereed 2010 Final - Blackpool 3 vs Cardiff 2
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Acme Thunderer

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #24 on: Mon 30 May 2022 20:53 »
Quote from: aaa on Mon 30 May 2022 20:47
Quote from: TheThingFromLewes on Mon 30 May 2022 20:24
Has Marriner had a EFL championship play off final? He should have had this match.

Thanks to google, he refereed 2010 Final - Blackpool 3 vs Cardiff 2

Thanks, I was about to post the same. I will update and post the playoff final database in the next few days.
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Whistleblower

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #25 on: Mon 30 May 2022 21:03 »
Quote from: TheThingFromLewes on Mon 30 May 2022 20:24
Has Marriner had a EFL championship play off final? He should have had this match.

Indeed he should or if not him Dean or Atkinson but certainly not ( as events have shown ) Moss particularly unassisted by Tierney as VAR.

Senior refereeing is a parlous state I believe. Oliver, Taylor, Marriner and Pawson can't do ALL the heavy lifting. I see little evidence that Coote, Attwell, A Madley, Tierney or  Bankes are going to attain the standard of Oliver, Taylor, Marriner and Pawson.  The best hopes, by a wide margin, are Gillett and England. Let's hope they really come along well in this next season and so can be confidently trusted with very big matches
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ajb95

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #26 on: Mon 30 May 2022 21:58 »
Quote from: Whistleblower on Mon 30 May 2022 21:03
Quote from: TheThingFromLewes on Mon 30 May 2022 20:24
Has Marriner had a EFL championship play off final? He should have had this match.

Indeed he should or if not him Dean or Atkinson but certainly not ( as events have shown ) Moss particularly unassisted by Tierney as VAR.

Senior refereeing is a parlous state I believe. Oliver, Taylor, Marriner and Pawson can't do ALL the heavy lifting. I see little evidence that Coote, Attwell, A Madley, Tierney or  Bankes are going to attain the standard of Oliver, Taylor, Marriner and Pawson.  The best hopes, by a wide margin, are Gillett and England. Let's hope they really come along well in this next season and so can be confidently trusted with very big matches

Madley and Bankes are seldom trusted with big games so difficult to make a judgement on. Coote definitely not and Attwell will do the odd one but not sure he has the authority to referee the really big encounters
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bmb

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Re: Championship playoff final - Jon Moss & var
« Reply #27 on: Wed 01 Jun 2022 23:43 »
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