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Author Topic: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham  (Read 5328 times)

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Leggy

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #60 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 10:02 »
First point to make is that I am very pleased that CK dealt with the Fulham manager and captain according to Law.  I sincerely hope that the proverbial book is thrown at both and that long bans follow - along with a clear message that the same will follow for anyone else taking the came course of action.

My second point (and I suspect that this is going to be less well received) is that, like a couple of other correspondents on this forum, I believe that the correct decision should have been given in real time by CK.  And, whilst I have no way of proving it, had this happened the subsequent furore would not have happened.

To illustrate, imagine that this is an FA Cup tie from a few years ago and one of England's top referees has to use his skill, nous and experience to correctly make the big calls.  On seeing what transpired, he whistles, awards a penalty and quickly shows the red card to the offender.  There will be protests, but nothing of this magnitude.

Fast forward to today, I believe that CK has a good clear view of the incident but is not 100% certain (when is anyone 100% certain??).  He knows he has the VAR "safety net" so gives nothing.  He could have given the penalty / red card and he would still have had the same safety net, but I have long believed that VAR is emaciating our top referees and many are too timid to make the big calls, relying on VAR to do that for them.

None of the above is anything close to an excuse for the subsequent behaviour, but our top referees have got where they are today without VAR and VAR is changing the way they officiate, and not for the better.

The reality doesn't back up that view though.  For all he had an excellent game, the fact that VAR corrected the penalty decision means he will be given a 7.9 for an incorrect key match decision.  No referee is going to willingly / knowingly not make a big call because they know they can reply on VAR, as they know a 7.9 will be forthcoming if they do.

It took me several replays to be sure it was intentional handling, and it was really the angle from behind the goal that made my mind up.  Chris Kavanagh got one view, from the worst possible angle, and was looking through much of Willian's torso, there is no way he could be 100% sure from the view he had.


Fair enough, for what it is worth, my first instinct was that it was handball.  My view was the live TV angle which was different from CKs, which might make your point.  I still firmly believe that - pre-VAR - he would have awarded the penalty - the contact looked all wrong.  We can agree to disagree.

What is emerging is that the Fulham management team had already pre-judged CK, entering the game with an "agenda" ("Our story with CK this season has been tough for us") going back to a game in October.  If a referee went to a club with such an agenda there would be a furore. 

Silva also demonstrated a degree of stupidly by adding (about his own red card):  "I am not going to lie. I didn't say he was a really nice guy and the decision was fair. But he didn't hear me."  Even if this is true (which I doubt) does that make it OK to abuse a referee if they cannot hear it?
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takethejag

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #61 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 10:37 »
The predictable blame game has started, starting with Marco Silva who harks back to a game played in October!

Excuse me? Why should that be of any relevance or excuse for what happened last night? Or for that matter, Chris Kavanagh refereed the fifth round tie between Fulham v Leeds and no fault was found there.

It’s the siege mentality….not my fault guv’nor, I’ll use the easy scapegoat, the referee for the incidents that occurred.

I’ve seen the incidents now, and Mitrovic’s behaviour is beyond the pale, making aggressive contact with Kavanagh and then getting in his face when the red card was shown. Dreadful….and the condemnation for that is just and appropriate.

A word to the wise…..deal with the match in front of you and don’t refer to the ill luck or rough decisions you’ve had with a particular official months or years before.

“I’ll have a word with him” and “He should have had two penalties himself” were two more Silva gems. A ban will suffice for the manager and his player and this will act as a deterrent to anyone else who goes overboard….but the blame game that comes out in moments like this are risible in the extreme.

An example needs to be set….will the FA have a backbone this time and take the necessary action? We will see

No-one can disagree with your points or the red cards that were given and Fulham will have to live long with the consequences of these, however there is a lot of anger and hurt from Fulham (and some other) fans on social media about both the conduct of Fulham but also the apparent duality of things and the things that weren't given (in Fulham's favour). From these social media posts, we can probably discount a FA conspiracy for an all Manchester final, or CK's birthplace being a factor but why can't Fulham feel aggrieved at the incidents referred to in matches where CK has been in charge, when these are coupled with decisions in this match that didn't go their way? These previous matches (Preston and West Ham away) were why I was so aghast at his appointment for the Leeds FA Cup home tie as I really didn't rate him and as you will recall, questioned whether there was any process where a team could request not to have a certain referee. Thankfully, the Leeds game went without incident, but as you will recall again, I was quite shocked that the same (Manchester born for a Manchester fixture) referee was allocated for this fixture. I don't think the FA/PGMOL did themselves any favour here and should have mixed it up with a different appointment.

Whilst all the plaudits (and sympathy) are for how CK was strong and stood up to things, what about the the things he missed? I understand the need for another look at the penalty/DOGSO, but where was the red card for Antony kicking Robinson off the ball (it was Antony who then fed Sancho for the DOGSO incident) and where was the penalty in the 3rd minute for Fulham for a clear push on Mitrovic off the ball right in front of CK. (I only saw the replay/images for that this morning). Where was VAR for these things? Was VAR already daydreaming about his impending (forced) retirement when these incidents took place? I think Marco Silva has every right to feel aggrieved, even if his actions were still totally unacceptable.
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bmb

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #62 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 10:59 »
I have a mentee who was only verbally abused yesterday (adults ganging up on a 16 year old girl refereeing her 9th ever game)
Fortunately she seems to be made of strong stuff  stronger than her parents who wouldn't have been averse to her giving up.

I hope the young lady concerned is ok. Please send some love and support from me and thank you for looking after her. This is where good mentors are so important.
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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adcr85

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #63 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 11:02 »
First of all, to echo the majority of the other posts - all three cards correct, Mitrovic actions scandalous and big ban due and on the whole, referee handled the situation well.

But just a couple of points, firstly from the wide angle you can see that when CK gets to the monitor and Silva first approaches him the assitant on the side is drinking from a bottle, so when CK gets his red card out you see him quickly drop the bottle and 'sitch back on' - just an example to all that at no point should you switch off during the match -= even when you thnk the action will be dead

Secondly - and to reiterate, the reaction is ridiculous, but why was CK so quick to get the red out fot Willian? As soon as he walks back to the pitch, when he is 80 yards from the penalty spot and 50 yards from Willian he points for the penalty and waves the red card in Willians direction while stood next to Mitrovic. Now I know the non-league style of bringing the player to one side, confiming the name etc. wouldn't happen - but I still think getting closer to the player may have helped. We are all headed up to that penalty area for the penalty - so just get the card out when you are there.

Ref95

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #64 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 12:08 »
Red card and hopefully a subsequent touch line ban is long overdue for Silva, who seems to have had runnings with officials for several weeks now. Personally I think his actions are the worst of the three and the catalyst for what followed. Clearly Mitrovic’s actions are also indefensible, but I’m almost certain he doesn’t react like that if his manager didn’t do so beforehand.

And in terms of this trickling down to grassroots, for me it’s the manager’s actions that mirror the current situation the most.  Kids won’t copy Mitrovic, they’ll follow the lead of their coach or parents, who will follow the lead of the likes of Silva.

From a referees point of view, I am completely grateful to CK for dealing with it so well. It gives us grassroots level referees a role-model for dealing with scenarios like this.
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jacksamuel21

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Readingfan

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #66 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 14:32 »
Silva's comments on Kavanagh's previous Fulham matches seemed pretty weak and unnecessary in the circumstances, especially as quite a few of the incidents seem to have been more ones for VAR.

Of course referees will sometimes make mistakes and managers can make constructive criticisms when these occur.

But I don't think it's helpful for managers to start speaking about a referee's previous record, especially when referencing such a small number of games. You'd basically end up in a position where if a referee had one poor game they'd be stopped from refereeing that team again or need to consider the decisions they give against that team the next time they referee them which doesn't sound a good place to be in.
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bmb

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #67 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 15:00 »
But I don't think it's helpful for managers to start speaking about a referee's previous record, especially when referencing such a small number of games. You'd basically end up in a position where if a referee had one poor game they'd be stopped from refereeing that team again or need to consider the decisions they give against that team the next time they referee them which doesn't sound a good place to be in.

How many years did managers and the media keep going on about Stuart Attwell & the ghost goal, despite it being the AR's call. 15 years on & it still gets mentioned every now and then. Absolutely pathetic! If referees started talking about players and coaches mistakes in every game they had done with them previously they'd have no time left to referee games!
Hajrá Lilák. Csak a Kispest. Hajrá Magyarok! Hajrá játékvezetői csapat! Soha ne add fel. Nincs sárga kérem!!! No Chris Kavanagh doesn't live in Ashton or even in the Greater Manchester area!!
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Claretman

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #68 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 15:28 »
But I don't think it's helpful for managers to start speaking about a referee's previous record, especially when referencing such a small number of games. You'd basically end up in a position where if a referee had one poor game they'd be stopped from refereeing that team again or need to consider the decisions they give against that team the next time they referee them which doesn't sound a good place to be in.

How many years did managers and the media keep going on about Stuart Attwell & the ghost goal, despite it being the AR's call. 15 years on & it still gets mentioned every now and then. Absolutely pathetic! If referees started talking about players and coaches mistakes in every game they had done with them previously they'd have no time left to referee games!
Anyone remember nigel bannister?

I dont expect managers have dossiers on when referees have performed well and eg because of advantage being played their team has scored a goal etc.
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PhiltheRef

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #69 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 16:06 »
I have a mentee who was only verbally abused yesterday (adults ganging up on a 16 year old girl refereeing her 9th ever game)
Fortunately she seems to be made of strong stuff  stronger than her parents who wouldn't have been averse to her giving up.

I hope the young lady concerned is ok. Please send some love and support from me and thank you for looking after her. This is where good mentors are so important.

Thanks,

She's fine, a toughie who wants to succeed and won't let them put her off.
I'll surely send her your good wishes when next we speak.
AT has been in touch already and she has lots of support, particularly from our growing cohort of female officials who are much more familiar than I with the particular difficulties young female referees encounter
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Arbitre anglais

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #70 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 16:54 »
First of all, to echo the majority of the other posts - all three cards correct, Mitrovic actions scandalous and big ban due and on the whole, referee handled the situation well.

But just a couple of points, firstly from the wide angle you can see that when CK gets to the monitor and Silva first approaches him the assitant on the side is drinking from a bottle, so when CK gets his red card out you see him quickly drop the bottle and 'sitch back on' - just an example to all that at no point should you switch off during the match -= even when you thnk the action will be dead

Secondly - and to reiterate, the reaction is ridiculous, but why was CK so quick to get the red out fot Willian? As soon as he walks back to the pitch, when he is 80 yards from the penalty spot and 50 yards from Willian he points for the penalty and waves the red card in Willians direction while stood next to Mitrovic. Now I know the non-league style of bringing the player to one side, confiming the name etc. wouldn't happen - but I still think getting closer to the player may have helped. We are all headed up to that penalty area for the penalty - so just get the card out when you are there.

Good point and not sure exactly how far away William actually was. Like a broken record, I’m going to blame the current culture - once the PK was given, everyone knew it would be a RC. I guess, get it done before players start running over to chip in, try to ‘persuade’ all over again?

With the OFR delay and crowd getting restless,  I wonder if English refs sometimes panic and give the ultimate decision too soon - foreign refs tend to get well back on field before doing it.

Also, Mitrovic had no business been there - he was only there to peck at the ref on the way to and from the RRA, which is always really irritating.

rustyref

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #71 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 17:15 »
First of all, to echo the majority of the other posts - all three cards correct, Mitrovic actions scandalous and big ban due and on the whole, referee handled the situation well.

But just a couple of points, firstly from the wide angle you can see that when CK gets to the monitor and Silva first approaches him the assitant on the side is drinking from a bottle, so when CK gets his red card out you see him quickly drop the bottle and 'sitch back on' - just an example to all that at no point should you switch off during the match -= even when you thnk the action will be dead

Secondly - and to reiterate, the reaction is ridiculous, but why was CK so quick to get the red out fot Willian? As soon as he walks back to the pitch, when he is 80 yards from the penalty spot and 50 yards from Willian he points for the penalty and waves the red card in Willians direction while stood next to Mitrovic. Now I know the non-league style of bringing the player to one side, confiming the name etc. wouldn't happen - but I still think getting closer to the player may have helped. We are all headed up to that penalty area for the penalty - so just get the card out when you are there.

Once he walks away from the monitor and does the VAR signal there can only be one possible outcome, penalty and a red card.  I'd argue that in walking over to Willian to show the red card he would have risked even more players surrounding him.  It wasn't as if there was any doubt who the card was for, so he might as well just flash it from a distance rather than unnecessarily drag things out.
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TheThingFromLewes

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #72 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 20:22 »
Mitrovic has been charged by the FA with violent and improper conduct…
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Adam

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #73 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 20:25 »
Well done to the FA who have joined Kav in the act of bravery this evening:

https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2023/march/20/fa-statement/

The statement regarding Mitrovic in particular is extremely saddening yet at least it looks like, for once, APPROPRIATE action will be taken by the FA.

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Carter

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Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
« Reply #74 on: Mon 20 Mar 2023 20:55 »
Well done to the FA who have joined Kav in the act of bravery this evening:

https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2023/march/20/fa-statement/

The statement regarding Mitrovic in particular is extremely saddening yet at least it looks like, for once, APPROPRIATE action will be taken by the FA.

We'll see.

They will hammer the manager with a big (in relative terms) touchline ban, which wont cause much grief.
I reckon Mitrovic will get 5 matches at most, when it should be at least 10.
The usual fines again which mean nothing.
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